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Hi, everybody..
This is my first time here, but I have been reading JoAnn’s Marriedtoasexaddict forum for a couple of months now, since learning about my husband’s sex addiction in August. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for all of you. You’ve all been a life raft during the most surreal time of my life.
My husband of 22 years has been in recovery for 3 months, and I have a question that is really bugging me. We’re separated right now, and recently he wrote his ‘first step sexual autobiography’ for his sponsor, but he refuses to let me see it. He tells me that I already know everything in it, and that it’s not for partners, but for sponsors and fellow SA members. I’ve told him that until I see it I can’t communicate with him at all, because it raises my doubts and suspicions.. which are already sky-high.. even higher.
I have a slight.. ok, a huge.. tendency to second-guess myself, so I’m wondering if I’m being unreasonable in wanting to see it. But the truth is, until I do, I will always wonder what is in it that I might not know, and I can’t even perceive of a future with him, if I’m in that state. I’ve seen his disclosure statement, but it’s pretty generic. Horrifying, of course, between the prostitutes and the massage parlors and the Craigslist girlfriend, and all that stuff that makes you feel like your world just turned itself on its backside. But I’m the kind of person who needs to know other stuff, you know? The sort of stuff that would be in his autobiography, which I assume would at least have some honesty in it. He *says* it includes the things that led up to his addiction, as well as everything else. But since he’s always seemed in the past to trust me with embarrassing stuff about his past..sexual fears, erection fears, childhood things, teenage things, I am really frightened that there must be something in this first step that he doesn’t want me to see, and that he’s afraid would make me leave him if I knew. Maybe things like he was actually emotionally attached to someone during our marriage, or lies he told me that I still don’t know about, or who knows what. And sorry to say, but I think he’s being rather half-assed about recovery in the first place, sort of fitting it into his busy schedule, so at this point I really have no reason to believe anything he says. If anyone has any advice or insights into this, I would really appreciate it. I did see a counselor a couple of times after this all came down, but I didn’t really click with her, and I’m not seeing anyone right now. I went to one COSA meeting, but couldn’t relate to that either, with its steps and having to call myself a co-addict or whatever. Anyway, thank you all for being here. I don’t know what I’d do otherwise right now.Hi 🙂
My H does a lot of work with the psychologist in a sex addicts workbook I do not see. He has made tons of lists (resentment lists, harms lists, etc.) through SA. I also got a letter from him done through SA. But that was all completely different than our official disclosure in front of a therapist.
SA 12 step groups are successfully in part by the aspect that it is anonymous. It’s an area where if he truly wants to recover, absolute honesty is needed. It’s hard for spouses because it breeds more “secrets.”
Your H needs to be honest with YOU with a full disclosure list for the sake of your marriage. And it really should be handled by a professional. You need time with a therapist ro sit down and work out what you really “need” to know. Gerneralizations are encouraged. Specific details tend to be detrimental to YOU.
However, as hard of a pill as it is to swallow, what he is doing with his sponsor and his 12 step work is for HIM. It may play a role in saving your marriage but it’s purpose is to help him, not
I have also found it difficult to accept that his 12 step work is about him, not me. And really none of my business. But I accept it because I also believe if that he is in recovery to save our marriage, he will fail. He needs to be in recovery to save himself from himself. I’m just hoping it works and then I can rebuild a marriage with a man who has rebuilt himself.
Hi anniem
Sorry you are here, but glad you are too.
I did get to read my husbands and there was much more than I anticipated.I don’t know what is best for you. I needed to know exactly what I was dealing with and then there was the fallout from that. I think many Saa groups say not to share with partners and maybe that’s because they are focussed on the addict and their recovery and I think they believe that our emotion will jeopardise that because we will make them feel guilty and ashamed (Aw poor baby). I’m guessing of course but from discussion I’m guessing that’s why.
It’s a bloody mess for sure – two people with apparently conflicting needs to get over a nasty mess. I don’t know. I’m with you on co anything!
Anyway, I wish you well on your journey and hope you get on ok. I think self care is the key and detaching from him and his issues is the best course of action.
AnywayOh… I wanted to add that my psychologist has made it very clear that my H should not show me those lists. I asked because I didn’t believe him when he said his sponsor said not to. I was NOT happy about that but I have accepted how important it is.
Thank you, Kim and Jos. I guess my need to read it is because I feel like I’m starting from scratch with him, because all the times he earnestly looked me in the eyes and lied to me have made me feel that I don’t know him at all. My gut is telling me that he’s been behaving really weirdly in the last couple of weeks, and that there’s a reason for it, but I don’t know what that reason is. But the timing coincides with him writing out this 12-page autobiography. I’m at the point of wondering just how much he’s told me..since he went into recovery.. simply isn’t the whole truth at all, no matter how sincere he might have seemed in the telling. The secretiveness about this first step is just gnawing away at my gut, because secrets are what got us to the place we’re in now, along with my stupid gullibility and trust.
Kim, what you said about him needing to be in recovery for himself.. I know that is true. But my husband keeps saying he’s in it to save our marriage, and I think that’s a big part of the problem. It creates a vicious cycle where he’s more likely to hide things because he thinks it will drive me away if I know more than I already know. And God knows that what I already know is horrible enough.Hi anniem,
I’m so glad you jumped right in with your question, that’s what we are here for.
Anything in recovery that allows secrets is no recovery at all. I am not a fan of 12 steps, and often, depending on the people in the group, it can be nothing more than a ‘good ole boys club’ that allows these secrets to continue.
I am like you, I need to know everything. Until I do it just festers like an ugly sore. I heard that same crap from Larry. ‘You don’t have the right to ask me that.’ he said.
‘Wrong!’ If he wanted to stay in the relationship and would ‘do anything’ then I made the rules, not him. He destroyed the trust and it was up to him to fix it and rebuild that trust in whatever way I needed.
Unfortunately after seven years I am still getting bits and pieces and discovering lies about what he had done.
If I had any advice to give it would be to go to a good weekend intensive where they have the SA write a full disclosure. Then, with counselors present, he reads it to you.
Then, you can ask any questions you like. Then he takes a polygraph and one of the questions is if he has been completely honest with the disclosure and with the answers he gave to your quesions.
That would help eliminate all this years and years of secrets that they just want to hang on to. As long as there are secrets they can NEVER embrace recovery completely.
Three months is not very long for you to work through all the trauma of discovery. Please, try to find a female counselor who specializes in domestic abuse. That is usually best choice as the Sex Addiction counselors just do not seem to get it yet unless you can find a rare gem who understands the trauma of partners of Sex Addicts.
You have every right to ask for whatever information YOU need. Fixing this is HIS responsibility, and it is up to him to give you whatever YOU need to heal.
Oh, just to let you know you are in good company, ‘co-addict’ is a bad word here.
Much love and light to you my dear ~ JoAnn
He must do it for himself. God knows how many times my husband said he would give up pornography to me or how many times he said he wasn’t seeing prostitutes…
I fear you are right to be wary if he’s doing it for the marriage. The best you can do is detach and focus on you. Hopefully his Wierd behaviour is more about being genuinely held accountable by a 12 step sponsor and having to look critically and honestly about his behaviour and actions.
Prayers to all sisters in this mess x
Hi Anniem
Sorry i can’t be of any practical help. My soon to be ex sah claimed to go to saa for a few months, never had a sponsor, never had any literature to read and never made any lists. It’s not too hard to work out that he never went – made worse only by the fact that he probably used the times he was supposed to be at his meetings to visit his favourite massage parlours.
I can completely understand how you feel about wanting to know though. I’d have been exactly the same. And why hide something if there’s nothing to hide.
I’ve read lots on the site lately about partners only giving partial disclosure or minimizing their actions. My partner never disclosed anything to me, he only ever admitted to something when I’d already found out about it and he’d tried to lie his way out of it and failed. And then he’d blame and minimize.
Sorry you feel his recovery is half hearted. Do you think he’s just doing it to get you to move back in?
Hugs
Bb xThe way the 12 step program is designed it breeds paranoia in the wives! You is a very good chance you are correct and he has not told you everything. I think everyone here will agree they NEVER do in the beginning. Some never at all. Without a polygraph there is no way to know except ro trust him. Which is impossible! Perhaps try to seek out a sex addiction therapist to oversee an official full disclosure.
Welcome by the way. I am new here too. Everyone here have been wonderful.
Hey there! I found the jump drive my husband put all that stuff on and read it when he wasn’t around. I certainly couldn’t count on him to be forthcoming, so everything was fair game. I found out things he hadn’t told me, of course. I say he has no right to keep ANYTHING from you. He forfeited any right to privacy he ever had when he chose to break your marriage vows and live a secret life.
Thanks Anniem,
for your new company on this hard journey for all of us. YOur question is really a deep one, as you may have realized.IMO, you can ask why it is necessary for him to keep more secrets from you. You can ask why his group believes more secrets will create more trust in your relationship with him.
I tend to me more in JoAnn’s corner on this one. I just won’t stand for secrets. If I don’t WANT to know information, then I choose the option of not knowing. But I will not allow some other SA’s to make that decision on my behalf. They have CLEARLY DEMoNSTRATED they are not the ones who should be holding that power.
I believe that what is revealed in these documents gives the partner an idea of whether their SA is so completely fucked up as to be incapable of having an adult relationship. That’s why they don’t want us to see it. It holds a truth that may not work for their agenda.
Just my opinion.And, how can anyone ever make an ‘informed’ decision without all the ‘information’?
You cannot decide if you want to stay with this man or leave if you do not have the whole truth.
Without that your decision is without basis and will forever rest on shifting sand.
Thank you, everybody. Have not yet read the latest replies, except JoAnn’s first one, and will read them all and respond. But first I just wanted to say thank you to JoAnn.. I’ve got tears in my eyes that I’m not alone in this. And while I guess.. assume.. that 12-step programs are helpful to addicts, I agree that it seems to add another layer of secrecy for people who already thrive on secrecy. I’ve noticed something a little..well..pompous or self-righteous or something about my husband when he says things like ‘this is only for my sponsor and SA members.’ Great. Like he didn’t already leave me out of his secret life. So now, when he’s presumably letting it all hang out and being open and honest in meetings, *I* don’t get to hear his real, honest self? Something’s just plain wonked about this.
Hi, march..
Yeah, I was actually writing in my journal last night.. brainstorming ways to find out how to read this 12-page thing. But since we’re separated right now, I don’t have access to his computer. Though when I did, I discovered computer skills I never even knew I had.. me the supreme Luddite!
Hi, diane.. Where you said,
“I believe that what is revealed in these documents gives the partner an idea of whether their SA is so completely fucked up as to be incapable of having an adult relationship. That’s why they don’t want us to see it. It holds a truth that may not work for their agenda.”
That’s exactly how I feel. If he doesn’t want me to see what is presumably his honest self, then what sort of relationship would that be, even if he did stay ‘sober?’
Hi, busybee..
Yeah, I think he just wants his regular life back as soon as possible. Well, sort of his regular life.. He had just gone back to school right before all this came down, because he’s doing a mid-life career change
, so now his whole life is classes and volunteering. He has a sex addiction therapist, and goes to meetings, but I think he has a long way to go before he actually embraces what recovery is all about, and that it involves humility..one thing he’s never been too good at, because he’s got this protective ego thing that shields his low self-esteem and his phobias and all that. He’s actually admitted that himself, so there is self-awareness in there, but putting it into practice is another thing altogether. Thank you again, everybody. I wish you didn’t have to be here, but it’s such a relief to have people who understand.
It is a very difficult time, and I recall it very well.
My SAh was also very “superior” and “arrogant” in his manner with me when he got involved with SA. It was intolerable. He was very pleased with himself and treated me even worse than he had been treating me. Something in the SA program gave him that permission, even encouraged it, and in my case was one of factors in me walking away from him. The need for control is fed by the secrecy. And the excuse of needing to “share” openly in the group once again excuses the lack of intimacy in the marriage relationship by re-directing this necessary piece of marriage to the other SA’s. What a relief it must be to them to find they are “required” to create distance between themselves and their partners! A dream come true. And yet another opportunity to feed their egoic need to play “I’ve got a secret” and now I can even lord it over you that I’ve got one.
This is part of the infantisizing element of the treatment model.
Your instincts are right on, Anniem. But perhaps it will be different with your SAh. Lots of light to you.
Diane.
ps. I wrote a piece on the other site about this called “Drowning in the Shallow End of the Pool” You might want to check it out.
Thank you, Diane.. I remember reading your piece on the other site, but I want to go back and read it again. I was reading the other site daily for several weeks, and I was amazed at the similarities that we all experience.
And what you said in your post above, Yes, yes, yes! That’s exactly what it feels like.. being lorded over yet again, left in the dark yet again, but this time they’ve got ‘permission.’ God, I wish I drank. Thank you so much for voicing exactly what I’m feeling right now.
Dear Anniem:
Sorry that this is happening to you. I am also sorry that 12 step doesn’t acknowledge the partner’s pain or trauma in the way you deserve. Yes, we deserve to know. Yes, we need solid information about what we are dealing with, if that is what we feel we need to heal. Cover ups and lies cannot be justified. I also wonder why he told you about his auto biography? If it was for “his recovery purposes only” don’t even mention it!! why not keep a secret a secret? He’s baiting you and then holding out. what is that all about.
Hi Anniem,
Might i also stir the pot with…he actually may have not included stuff in his autobiography. They are also great about leaving stuff out!!I also wanted to thank your for you post. My h did 12 step and never once did an autobiography that i know of. However I had asked for one, i called it his sex story. I wanted to know it all, from age 5 when he said it all started, to now. He never did it. I think i waited three months. But what makes me happy to hear, is that slowly but surely, i have learned that all the things i had asked for in the past from him…to even try to salvage our relationship…he never did. And the fact that these things that my GUT told me to do, are recommended by SA groups and therapists. When i read this, it was like a release for me, my heart lightened. And it just felt like it was the final piece of realizing…yes i was right…no he never intended to get better…and yes he was still lying to you.
Thank you for your post.
Ohhh and i love Diane piece on the Shallow end of Recovery. One of my favorites.
And i love JoAnn’s post; must know everything to move forward. I think they have a brief window of time to get it all out on the table, after that its torture and not right. I truely beleive that if they told it all, within a few weeks, there is a whole lot better chance to move forward. And when doing so, really embrace recovery and get better. If they keep harboring their secrets, they can;t get better. You can;t get better for wihtout admitting all of your addiction. Thats what i think anyway.
Love,
FloraWelcome Anniem,
Lexie, Lorraine, Laurel (real name) here… lol… some call me triple L…;)
I’ll just jump right in…
I really need to write my story! very soon! so, i don’t need to keep 100 peating it! lol… but for now, my husband (who i just found out, is a sex/porn/emotional love addict) years ago, after I poured my heart to him about what was missing for me, and what I needed, suggested that I date.
I was involved with one of the snakiest SAs–evah.. the infamous “predator”, as I fondly call him. I had a policy of NO MARRIED men, and pred, told me that he was single– just one of hundreds of lies that spewed outta his fekked up mouth like ointment coming outta a tube under pressure. In addition, I chatted with 100s of other men. Some for only a minute and some for much longer. Suffice it to say, that was not one of the finer periods of my life… even though I was in the care of a skilled therapist… I learned some things about myself, too. In the end, I could not take his abuse any longer, and was feeling horrible about his partner, and so I told her. She did not want to know. That is how I ended up here, in the first place. I wanted to help other women understand what is REALLY going on with their husbands, and then I found 100s of other women who corroborated my findings… and here we all are.
First of all… I do not believe that you h is in REAL recovery. This good ol’ boys secret society is a crock o shit.
And second… you will never have full disclosure. For in order to have that, you would have to be privvy to every single instant message chat, every email, every text, every phone call, and every encounter, not to mention every ad/profile he ever placed and every one he answered.
I realize that this is excruciatingly painful to read, but please know, that i’ve been on the other side of this twisted coin, as well… as you may have surmised… Now why did this attractive woman’s husband ask her if she wanted to date other men???
In addition to that… SAs lie to THEMSELVES, too! They believe their own lies. But, sometimes they tell the truth or they tell a half-truth and they ALWAYS omit the details– the details that are the REAL deal breakers.
If your husband was doing all of the things that you say that he was… and I don’t mean to traumatize you any further, and you don’t have to go there, but just know that the things he told these women would make you walk straight out the door and never come back.
but don’t worry.
he doesn’t remember.
he doesn’t remember what he said, what he did, who he was with, what he told them to seduce them… just know that it will have absolutely NO resemblance to the man that you thought that you had married.
its his evil twin, at best, and a dangerous sociopath, at worst.
Very, very few men actually DO recover from sex addiction. Recovery means 100000% transparency, honesty, and a willingness to put in 1000s of hours of VERY HARD WORK, for the rest of his life.
There is no such thing as a cure. only management.
I have reached a conclusion that a woman has three choices.
One) stay in the marriage– eat your heart out… fret, worry, rail, monitor, stalk, cry, scry (a scream and a cry altogether), stay on anti-depressant anti-anxiety meds…
Two) stay in the marriage and do nothing. join the party (but I really, really do NOT recommend this, unless you are also a sex addict and/or are bi-sexual). look the other way. make your own separate life… and just live as roommates not caring what the other one is doing. (I tried doing this, but its not for me, either)
Three) leave– cut your losses, make a plan, but get out of the crazy.
The only way I would even consider staying, is if my husband had come to me, a long time ago and said to me,
“Laurel… I need to speak to you… I have a BIG problem… and I need your help. I have lost my way… and I DO NOT WANT TO BE THAT MAN ANYMORE! I just hope that you can find a place in your heart to forgive me, for what I’ve done… and that we can find our way to get back to each other, because I cannot live this lie anymore.”
Ever see a pig fly?
My stance now… is to leave. Of course, no one can tell you to do this… and I am years ahead in the process… but from what you have said, at this moment in time, I do not believe that your husband is in actual recovery… therefore, he is still in active addiction.
I realize that its a lot of food for thought… a tremendous amount to absorb. I so very much wish that the news were better… but, you will hear a lot of claims of MIRACULOUS RECOVERIES.
They are rare and on top of that, more often than not, those “recoveries” simply take on a different form… or rather the addiction does. Some become addicted to other drugs/alcohol, or to God… or to work, food, shopping, gambling… OR become dry drunks that without their addiction crutch, become IMPOSSIBLE to live with.
Please know that there are many women on this site who are still living with their addicts as am I.
I am going… but its slow going, right now. 23 year marriage… so you know… you can’t just turn the ship around on a dime.
Even IF my husband “recovered”, I would go… simply because I cannot get past what he did for most of our marriage and especially the last nine years.
And he will not change. not really.
Again, a very warm welcome and glad that you found us…
xo,
Laurel
Last night my husband showed up unexpectedly at our house, after no communication for four days. He said he’d talked to his sponsor and gotten some clarity on me needing to see his first step ‘autobiography.’ But within a few minutes he was defensive and angry again. Then he said his sponsor had advised him to ‘edit’ part of his first step document before sending it to me. wtf.. He told me that his sponsor had agreed with what I’ve been telling my h.. that so often he treats all this as if it’s just a ‘fight,’ rather than a life-shattering crisis caused by him.
Then he started crying. Then for a while he talked.. in what seemed like a sincere way, but who knows.. about needing to look at how self-centered he is, needing to learn humility. But when he left, there was no mention of him sending me his first step. Bottom line, I feel completely muddled..which I guess is my usual state anyway, these days.. and have no idea what his little visit was about. I’m feeling other stuff too, but can’t quite figure out what. Minimized, I guess..not taken seriously.. idiotic for not telling him when he showed up that we had nothing to talk about. Also really detached from him, which seems like sort of a positive thing, as I haven’t been too stellar at detaching yet. And that familiar feeling that he really wasn’t ‘there,’ even during the time he seemed to be talking sincerely. Since he went into recovery, there have been many times where I’ve felt like, ‘Ok.. that is really him I’m talking to right now. No fakeness, no stiltedness, no Robot Man, no Ego Man.’ But in the last few weeks those times seem fewer and fewer. I’m just all over the place, and wishing I felt stronger and clearer.. Thanks for listening, and thanks to all of you for being there.
Love and gratitude,
AnnieHoney, I’m so sorry for your pain. I know that this is all very difficult to comprehend, but what appears fake, stilted, phony, robotic, IS his normal. He’s a narcissist and somewhere along the way, his brain did not develop normally. You can’t make something that isn’t there to begin with.
NOW, he can fake it and appear normal, because he read it in a book or saw it in a movie, or heard his friends talking, etc.
But, you are not an idiot, at all… but what I think you are doing is realizing that the person you thought he was, doesn’t really exist.
I really can’t stand it when a man starts crying cause he got caught with his pants down. He can cry when someone dies of if one of his kids gets cancer, but for God’s sake, stop being a pussy and man up to who you are and what you’ve done.
but he can’t, so expecting him to be something he isn’t, is going to prove to be very, very frustrating.
Why he can’t even tell you the entire TRUTH…until his sponsor clues him in that THIS is what he’s supposed to do?! Of course, you and I and everyone know good and well why he can’t. He can’t because its not going to be something that you will be able to tolerate. So, it needs to be edited out. wtf??? is right!!!
The other thing is that narcs and SAs will do endearing things like just show up and offer us tool kits, help with our computer… blah, blah… and then… poof its all gone– he’s defensive and angry and its all beyond crazy making.
That intermittent reinforcement is a doozy and what REALLY keeps us off balance and muddled, dazed and confused… and for him, thats a helluva lot better than,I’M DIVORCING YOUR ASS, FUCKTARD!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately, with someone this sick, the only way to get away from the crazy, is to get away from him. Otherwise, we are to expect more of the same, and more of the same feelings of despondency.
I’ll pray for your strength and clear vision.
xo ~ L
Thank you, Lexie. What you said about ‘intermittent reinforcement’ really rings true for me. Right after I posted, I got an email from him, and I’m wondering if it’s ok to post it here..without names, of course? I would really like to get feedback because my first reaction reading it was that it seemed like there was a lot of self-pity in there. Usually I’m a compassionate person, but lately..not so much. He just today moved into a condo he’s subletting, after living in a motel for about 10 weeks. That’s a whole ‘nother story for another day, involving me being very pissed about his timing of this little sublet thing.
And Lexie, what you said about his crying..yeah, lately it just leaves me a bit cold, and i get the urge to say ‘Man up, already.’ Which is weird because my family and friends have always teased me that my heart is too soft for my own good. Well, they haven’t seen me lately, that’s all I can say. I feel like not only my h is a stranger to me, but that I’ve become one to myself too. And thank you for your prayers for my strength and clarity.. I need ’em bigtime!
Annie,
Welcome aboard the love train!!! We are all here for you and we can see bits and pieces of ourselves and our ahem, marriages in your words! That’s why we all fit together so nicely (well… Most of the time!). We all live the same lives in a way, ugh, it sucks but sometimes we could swear that we were married to the same man another sister posts about! It is really incredible and I believe one of the ties that bind us!!
One thing you said in your original post that sticks with me – you have a big tendency to 2nd guess yourself. Hmmm…. Sound familiar, veteran sisters?? It’s most likely because years of living with this asshole has made you that way!! He has shifted the blame, twisted things around, looked at you all crazy sometime in the past when you were “on to something”, etc. They are crazy makers!! They thrive on it!!
Triple L (Lexie) will tell you no lies!! As a new comer, her comments can be a bit scary and intimidating! But she’s been there- twice!!!- and knows what she is talking about! I agree with everything she said, wholeheartedly!
In time, you will be mentally, spirituality, and emotionally ready to make the best decisions for yourself. In the meantime, please make it a huge priority to take good care of YOU, first and foremost and always!!! You HAVE lost yourself, in a way, we ALL do! But honey, you can find your way back with a little luck, alot of hard work, a good therapist (necessary!!!), and all the love and support from your new sisters!! We will help you each and every step!!! Hang in there!!!
P.S. Diane – I love it when you say “fuck”. 🙂
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