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So up until now (about four weeks post-discovery), my husband has been uncharacteristically flexible and amenable to my requests – I moved w our kids away from him, he has been seeing the kids weekends only, going to therapy. But at last nights couples session (I know I shouldn’t be doing couples tx, just not ready to stop yet) it all fell apart. I continue to be very angry about him having sex w six (probably more) prostitutes during our ten yr relationship along w porn use, inappropriate relationships w other women. He shared all of these changes that he has made over the past few weeks and wants me to see he is now a different person (after one individual therspy session and a handful of couples sessions). the changes included being more “present” in the moment, no longer drinking alcohol, and not watching tv or using the internet and that being more present has afforded him the ability to do his job much better and more efficiently. I was outraged by this list of changes/insights as they have nothing to do w figuring out how why he slept w prostitutes, nothing to do with feeling guilty or remorseful about what he’s done to me or our family – as always it is all about HIM. He then turned it around and said that nothing he could say would be good enough for me. Essentially, he wanted me to stand up and give him a big hug and say wow, Im so proud of all of these amazing insights and changes and when I didn’t, he got angry. In my mind, the message from him is – I’ve made some changes, it’s time for you to come home (which he subsequently demanded as seeing the kids once a week is unacceptable to him) even though I’ve only been gone for ten days. I am in another state about 1.5 hrs away and if I moved back home, he would live elsewhere, but me and kids do not have nearly as much support (family and friends) if we were to move back. But again, he doesn’t care. He cares that HIS needs aren’t being met and he doesn’t give a shit about me or the kids or what is best for us.
My question is – does the list of “changes” sound as narcissistic to you all as it does to me? He is so in my head that I woke up this morning worried I had over reacted in the session as I got very irritated about his nasty responses to me and the fact that none of this soul searching seemed to include anything about how this experience affected anyone but him.
I called him a predator in the session and walked about after some serious gas lighting on his part. He continues to make me feel like the “crazy” one and I’m still struggling to stay grounded and remind myself that HE is the one who is sick, NOT ME.YOu are NOT crazy. YOu are absolutely spot on.
This is exactly what they do. As soon as they inconvenience themselves the tiniest bit to act even partially “normal”, they expect a great big parade and for you to just shut up about it and do what he wants.
It is narcissistic. It is arrogant entitlement. He got caught, is going thru the motions to achieve the end he wants, which is not a mutually respectful relationship of an honouring of his family life. It is not love. Love is humble. Love is not arrogant or proud or boastful. Love does insist upon its own way.
And if that sounds familiar, it might have been read at your wedding. It’s from I Corinthians 13 in the New Testament.I’m not generally one to quote the Bible at people, but he needs a good dose of it. You can tell him your support clergy, a 25 year veteran of ordained ministry told you so.
He is the one who is sick. NOT YOU. Do not give in.
And where was the stupid therapist when your jerk was giving the floor show?
Wow, Anne. One of the sisters is going to give you a damn good answer, but let me be the first to say- you stay grounded, girl, because you got this one absolutely right.
He is in no position to be telling you what you need and when you should be over it. But that is classic SA behavior. I am curious what your marriage counselor was doing while all this was going on?
You have every right to be pissed off at him and his shallow recovery. You did not overreact. You stay right where you are with your support system. Do not even second guess yourself, sister.
Oh Anne,
If you are where it is better for you and your kids…stay there. From what you describe you are perfectly right to question his “changes”??? Where was the marriage counsellor in all of this exchange?? What is wrong with the marriage counsellor that they don’t see that the use of prostitutes is not normal by ANY definition?
Your H sounds like a full blown narc. It will always be ALL about him. Be very careful here Anne. Karen xxSorry to say this so close to the Bible quote ( God will forgive me).
FUCK that horseshit. I swear I heard that same shit and it got my dumbass kicked out of the house. I will NEVER listen to that shit again. I have NO idea where they get off thinking they can fuck hookers and have a ticker tape parade because they become “present”. He can take his “present” and shove it up his ass as far as I`m concerned. And he can shove it up his ass with the help of the idiot marriage counselor. Geez…what is wrong with people?
Sorry, end rant…..You are not crazy. He is in DENIAL. Mine did the same thing until Dr. Minwalla got hold of him. Stop talking to him. Remind yourself that he is sick. You are talking to the addiction and you cannot believe or listen to anything he says. Would you listen to a drunk? NOPE!!!
Take care of yourself and the kids. See an attorney immediately. Tell him he can get serious help or it`s over. No more discussion. He does NOT get to bang hookers and call you crazy or make you feel crazy. That is NOT how life works.
Anne, I second what the other sisters told you. This is such classic narcissism. Along with that weird deflection off the actual subject like your husband did..talking about how his work habits are better..I mean wtf does that have to do with anything?
Bev, you always make me laugh. 🙂 After reading Diane’s beautiful biblical quote, and then seeing ‘Fuck that Horseshit.’ Ya gotta love this place. I’ve got Monty Python in my head now, ‘And now for something completely different..’ 🙂
xoxo
Thank you for the support. I feel so adrift so much of the time and really appreciate your help to allow me to feel more grounded.
I was definitely disappointed w our marriage counselor. On other occasions, I have felt protected in the room, but not yesterday. I get that the couples therapist has to honor the alliance he has w each party, but he HAS to see how sick my h is, and how much I need the support.
How long does it take to really see through their horseshit and be able to own it, and not second guess your own impressions/experience?Anne, you said in your original post that you just aren’t ready to stop couple’s therapy. If I may ask, why not? The only couple your H is involved with at present is him and his addiction. Until he stops all his denial techniques and starts to own his behavior you are wasting your time and money. And how was your couple’s therapist honoring his alliance to YOU? Sounds to me like he didn’t. As for your last question: the longer you are here on SOS and listen to the stories and absorb the wisdom and advice these wonderful ladies can give you, the easier it will be.
Hugs,
DaisyAnne, the second-guessing part is still really hard for me. I asked my therapist about that and she said the best thing to try to do was to get into the habit of trusting what felt like my gut, and if I was wrong, ok I was wrong. But that it was better to go with one’s ‘best guess’ at any point in time, in order to try to change the pattern of second-guessing and self-doubt. I don’t know if you have a long history of second-guessing yourself, but I sure do, so it made sense to me, as far as trying to reverse a lifelong pattern. It’s still a hard habit to break though, especially after years of thinking I was trusting my gut by believing in him. xoxo
Anne,
I wasn’t ready to throw in the towel on marriage counseling until I got seriously burned. Our marriage counselor actually told me that a lot of guys go to hookers…..OMG. He also didn’t recognize my SAH as having a serious problem. This did so much damage to me. Don’t subject yourself to it. If your marriage counselor is clueless about PDs and SA – then it a dangerous situation. Our second one (who helped bring my SA out of denial) didn’t think a disclosure was a good idea since it was “dwelling on the past”, too much. These are just examples of the damage that well intended therapist can have on you in the midst of your SAH’s supposed recovery. Run the other way. If you must go, then find someone who can at least recognize what’s going on…..and can focus the session on checking in on his recovery efforts and prod him along in front of you – and validating your pain and trauma. And not work on your relationship – because there is none right now. And you can’t even begin to rebuild it unless he gets his head out of his butt, gets broken down and gets serious about his crap.
I’d say – stay away from him. Time will tell if he ever figures it out. Right now he’s not even on the bicycle.
Deb
Anniem—-the juxtaposition of me quoting the Bible and Bev letting it rip really was hilarious!!! But I have to say I did enjoy Bev’s blast and agree with it.
Bev you should be writing for Wanda Sykes.Anne,
these therapists often get scared when they see they completely out of their depth. They will never admit it. They have one song to sing and they just keep singing it “it takes two to ruin a marriage”. When in our case, those two are the dumb ass husband and the idiot therapist!there are some good therapists out there, we know, but we are so horribly damaged and abused by the bad ones.
Anne, Do not stay in marriage counseling. He is narcissistic right now. I believe your best hope of getting him out of this phase is to stay away from him. You do not need or want memories of the narcissistic phase. Stay away from him. Don’t talk on the phone. Stay with your support system. See if the narcissistic fog lifts at the beginning of the new year and not before. If not lifted, give him another 8 weeks of no communication and check again.
Anne,
Daisy and Penny are right on. He needs to be in treatment and you need your own therapist for you only. Being in couples therapy right now is putting the cart before the horse and it’s only going to confuse the situation for both of
you. It’s really not approrpriate at this time. You each need your own and he may need to go to treatment to get the jumpstart he needs. Many here have been happy with Dr. Minwalla’s intensive and he understands the spouses trauma. I think marriage counseling will confuse the real issues right now. IMO. Wishing you all the best.
Love, NapDear Anne,
I am going to second what the other girls have said but heres the thing…I know you are afraid to end your marriage (for a bunch of reasons you mentioned before). That makes it really difficult to do what you need to do, because what you need to do is tell him it is either he gets REAL help or you and he are over. When he asks where the “real’ help is you direct him to Dr Minwalla at the Institute for sexual recovery in LA for at least a 2 week intensive. A marriage counsellor will only give him more ammo to use against you as I mentioned before. I would lay money that your husband is a narcissist -others here will say it is his addiction but I personally doubt that very much. I believe he cheats because he wants to and he doesn’t care that it hurts you. However, you making a big fuss about it inconveniances him and thats a hassel he cannot be bothered with. You say you doubt your own voice BUT you are spot on. How could he SUDDENLY be present and be fixed after 1 individual therapy session??? That doesn’t even make sense now does it? His approach is classic. This is all about getting you to shut up and let everything go back to normal….which of course will be him cheating on you. He might tone it down for awhile until things settle but eventually you will be back to square one.These are very early days for you Anne and you don’t know us very well yet. BUT we do know these guys and how they operate and they don’t do ANYTHING unless they are forced into it. Your H has to feel like he has something to lose or he is going continue to just play around with your head. Please go online and do some research about narcissists. It will scare the shit out of you but if you don’t recognize your relationship in what you read, I will be very surprised. A little research will give you some idea how to handle him and protect yourself.Your husband cheats because he thinks he can get away with it. If you don’t change this dynanmic right now ….that is what you will live with for the rest of your marriage. His image is important to him and he wants you back in the family home so people don’t ask questions. If you can stand up to him on any point make it that one. REFUSE to take yourself and your kids away from the support you have now. Let him figure out what to tell other people. Stay where you are safe, Anne because you are not safe with him.He needs a real big attitude change and you are the only one who can bring that about. You are NOT crazy but he sure as hell is. Don’t listen to him at all. He wants to hurt you and use you.Don’t let him Anne. Karen xx
anne,
he is trying to manipulate you. he may not even know it. he is trying to control you so he can come back. he thinks he is doing the right thing. believe me girl, the level of denial can be staggering!
YOU are the one who gets what she wants right now. YOUR safety is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. stay where you are. you need support.
if he wants back, tell him he needs to go see dr. minwalla, and you will talk after that. and maybe, maybe, he can come back.
one thing i believe very strongly. the very few that actually turn around (anyone anyone?) do so because they believe they will lose everything if they don’t
the stronger you are for you. the better for you. and it will also benefit him, so you can tell yourself you are being strong (as in staying away) out of love for him if it makes it easier for you.
these guys are grown adults acting like children. they like you to believe they are fully, and often righteously, functional. they are not. he is a broken man. you are the one who has her faculties, you have not been doing damage to your brain – trust yourself girlfriend. YOU set the tone here, not him.
and don’t listen to what any therapist says if it doesn’t feel right.
get out of couples counselling… this shit needs a specialist, and even they struggle, but at least they know SAs lie and manipulate..
love to you
Anne,
What you posted is so classic. I am sorry that you are enduring all of this pain. My H did the same exact thing. It is crazy making at it’s best. Your gut is telling you that what you are seeing from him is not a sincere recovery. Be strong for yourself and believe in what you need from him. Believe in what you need for yourself. Keep posting and telling us what your are experiencing. It helps to see your experience written down because when you are going through it, it seems all like a bad night mare. Your life is real, your feelings are real, this is real. Keep up the good work Anne,
Hugs, CindyAnne, do you want the good news or bad news first? Ok, bad news it is. Your husband is a classic SA narc. (Sex Asshole, as I don’t buy the whole “I’m a Sex Addict…I just can’t possibly keep my fucking dick in my pants because I’m helpless against some overwhelming compulsion and her name is Sierra and she’s 25 and has 42 Double D’s…oh, and my childhood sucked, blah, blah, fucking blah”.) The GOOD news (if you want to call it that) is he’s following the SA playbook to the letter. That gives you a decided advantage. Hang on, Anne, it’s about to get real dirty out there on the field – be prepared to play as if your life depends upon it. Cause it does.
Liza is right. Everyone else is right. We know what we’re talking about, don’t doubt that for a second. He’s not unique. He’s playing by the book. He has nothing interesting or true to say. Now, he starts blaming you: You can’t move forward; you’re too angry; he will never be able to do anything right; he’s tired of disappointing you…It becomes YOUR job to make things better. Yes, shower him with gratitude. Give him a medal. Throw that party. Have a parade. HE IS PRESENT. HE STOPPED WATCHING TELEVISION. So what’s YOUR problem?!
It’s the worst part, really.
The worst part is when they “find” God. That is too tiresome to discuss. God wasn`t lost dummy! I`ll bet the farm he tries that next 🙂
Anne – tell him to go to Minwalla and then (if M says it’s safe), and ONLY then, talk to him. You need to stay away from him. He will blame, minimize, rationalize, gas light and want you to cheer his every move. I know it seems counter intuitive, and therapists who claim to know what they are doing will tell you otherwise, but seriously – stay away from him right now.
Deb
I think it’s so great Dr. Minwalla is so open and available. A sign of a genuine caring professional who wants to help.
hahah march! exactly! Anne you sound so much smarter than I did after 4 weeks. It took me like 6 months to start to see through it.
You are right. And he is blaming you because he doesn’t want to be wrong, vulnerable, or feel rejected. < I fed all three of those things for years. I can make him feel right, safe and important, even if I have to take a back seat. If it makes him happy all is well. And then find out about his twisted hidden world and you start to stand up for yourself and say no fucking way is THAT ok. And he gets super defensive and lashes out at you. He won't be wrong! He is Godzilla and you won't stand still so he can step on you. It's pissing him off and he's puffing out his chest, let the games begin! He knows how to whittle your resolve away!
Too late. He lost. No do-over. Now don’t let him talk you into self doubt.This is more about him winning than admitting he hurt you.
And if he is like my h, he will not allow himself to be rejected or fail, or ever be his mommy’s unperfect naughty boy. My h will throw his 5 kids and wife away but still works hard to impress his mom.Really listen to the words he chooses when he talks to you.
Example – my h always says so sincerely – sometimes with tears – “I hope your heart can heal from all the pain it’s been through”.Instead of looking me in the eyes and saying “I am so sorry for all the pain I caused you”. “heart” is a figure of speech not a person – he can’t be rejected by an organ, “pain it’s been through” is not excepting responsibility. It’s my problem not his. And “it’s” is not me it is a heart. But if you saw how lovingly he says it, and the tears and grand pauses. Shit it’s no wonder he can charm the pants off of anyone!
Play word detective. Hit record on your phone and go over it later and take it apart.
Sorry for the rant. ps my new therapist is putting so much into perspective.
and I want to see the sa who really hits bottom and truly comes back groveling, on hands and knees begging for forgiveness. One who opens himself up to their wife’s love and becomes as humble of a servant that he expected the women in his life to always be. An actual recovered sa. Please God show me one!
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