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Bev said something on another post about this site may not be a true representation of the SA community in terms of any of them that get better and thus, their marriages get better. Trust me, I do not have rose-colored glasses on and know the extent of the depravity and betrayal of my SAH’s actions but I wanted to have an objective discussion on can they truely get better? If they say they want to, they are tired of living the secretive life, they are very sorry for hurting you & the kids…can they recover? My SAH’s words indicate those things and only time will tell if his actions back them up. I need to decide if I even want to be around if and when he is better b/c even if I can get to a place of trusting him again, can I forgive & forget all that he has done? However, for the sake of argument, can it be done?
I say it can’t. I found out about my h 13 yrs ago. I stayed. He admits to going back to it shortly after he completed a treatment plan with a counselor. His deception became something to be proud of because for the last 13 yrs I saw no indication that he was up to his old behaviors and escalating. His words now sound just like your sah – but his actions tell a different story. My kids were at his apt. that he shares with one of my sons in MD for New Years Eve. sah was in VA at his brother’s pet sitting so they did not see him. He conveniently left out a stack of “self help” type books – my son said about 6-7 of them and only one had been cracked. Now if he was really trying – wouldn’t he have brought those books with him to his brother’s empty house to work on and read? He left them for my kids to see so they would think he was really trying. What they saw was a stack of brand new books that had not been touched. I think it is the rare guy that will beat this type of addiction. I believe the majority will not. It is just a click away and no one is going to give up their computer or smart phone in this day and age. It is not like you can pour the booze down the sink. It is too accessible and I know at least for my h – will power and determination are not part of his vocabulary. And all the talk in the world about wanting to change, means jack shit. It is all about their actions.
My gut says no. My therapist says no. Not just about mine, but about all SAs/serial cheaters. The hardest addiction to treat. Also, usually there is a personality disorder to go with it, so that sucks too.
Hope is the hardest thing to give up.
They are usually all sorts of fucked up.
No. They don’t get better. They might get better at pretending or better at hiding it, but never better.At the core level I don’t believe they change, but they become better at hiding and pretending, but if you change and felt stronger you could possibly train them to behave with you how you want them to behave.
i believe some can learn to manage their compulsions. they may become better at understanding their emotions, and acting empathetic.
that may work for some partners.
won’t work for me though. the danger of being betrayed again, hurt again, is too present and too real. and too likely.
and no matter how hard they work, they have done severe damage to themselves and to others with their behaviour. they will always be crippled to some degree. even if they receiver, they will fight this ‘addiction’ for the rest of their lives.
and their partners will be the ones that suffer if they lose the fight.
again, it may be worth it for some. the pros may outweigh the cons. financial, keeping the family together. it might be worth it.
just not for me.
We don’t know. We don’t know because we don’t see any examples of men who’ve beat it or wives who are happy with recovering SA’s. I wish we did. There were a few women in the S-Anon meetings I attended in the beginning who claimed that their h’s were in solid recovery, but those women didn’t seem happy. Rather, they were resigned and bordering on bitter. Too much time and energy spent identifying ‘their part’ in everything is an exercise in self-defeat, in my opinion, and they indeed appeared to be defeated. Where are the happy endings? I want to believe they are out there.
Okay, just for speculation…
Let’s say that YOU had to change who you are in order to save your marriage. You have to change the very core of everything that is you.
What if YOU had to become something very different from who you are?
Could you do it? Could you do it forever? Would you be able to?
What if, to save your marriage, YOU had to stop being open? What if, in order to save your marriage, you had to stop communicating with your husband? What if every time you wanted to share something, happy or sad, you could not?
What if YOU had to become secretive? What if talking about how you felt was forbidden? No talking about what you did at work or how your day went. If you do your marriage will fall apart.
What if YOU had to find sexual release in secretive places? Normal marital intimacy is not allowed if you want to save your marriage.
What if YOU had to change your entire perspective on love and sexuality? Change or your marriage is over.
What if you had to have sex with female hookers? Yes, YOU, a woman. What if that was the only outlet allowed under these new rules? Could you if it would save your marriage?
You see, that is what we are asking these men to do. We are asking them to change the very core of their being. Their personality.
Personalities are formed in early childhood and do not change. This is not just my opinion, this is taught and stated in every psychological manual available.
We cannot change who we really, really are. Yes, we can make minor changes, yes we can learn to put the cap on the toothpaste or learn to cook dinner just like mom.
But change our very core?
Ain’t gonna happen. ~ JoAnn
I’m just not really sure. A woman is beaten by her husband. He says he is sorry and won’t do it again. He always does it again. We shouldn’t be trying to hold it (the relationship) together if we were being physcially abused, what’s the difference? I know I’m not being very optimistic. I’m just sick and tired of reading about how all you wonderful, amazing, smart, strong, beautiful women are being treated by this good for nothing men. And we keep trying to see if we can fix it! To see if maybe he will be the one that is different. The happy ending. While they keep going and getting their “happy endings” somewhere else. I am resigned and bitter. What if I chose differently? What if I choose to be happy without him? What if what he does doesn’t matter? I’m starting to think that the only way to live a happy life is without them.
What a different perspective JoAnn. I have never thought of it that way. It makes me more sure then ever, that my husband will not be able to change. So sad.
can they change? sure. do they want to? no. that’s really the bitter pill that we all have to swallow. they want it both ways, otherwise, why lie? in my case, we weren’t even married so there was no really no reason he couldn’t have simply said that he wanted to date others. i keep coming back to that. he wanted me — the loyal, loving girlfriend AND the prostitute on the side. it’s simple selfishness. do i buy that there is actually something called sex addiction? maybe. but that just means you have to work harder at controlling your impulses. it doesn’t give you a free pass to shit all over the people who care about you. these guys are just assholes. they’re not mentally deficient. they KNOW what they are doing. they know it is wrong. and that’s why they hide it.
I like your twist, JoAnn. I might add that I know some sister did try to change themselves- had affairs, went to swinger parties, etc.- for their SA’s. And it hurt them.
I didn’t go to that extreme, but I did learn to say everything very carefully so as not to upset him, blame myself, greet him at the back door every day no matter what I was doing because that’s what he wanted, etc. And I felt like I was going nuts.
It really comes down to the idea that they have a PD primary to the SA, right? And we have yet to find a “cured” SA without a PD.
I guess I can’t speak for all of them, but I can say that I truly believe that my STBX will not ever get better. My father never got better. From what I understand, my grandfather never got better. I don’t think it is very likely.
I cant say yes and i cant say no. I can tell you that if you truely want to change you can. Do i believe that most people with SA want to change? no. but do i think its possible… maybe.
They could not do what they do if they were normal.
Of course they want to change. I do believe that.
But, can they?
This thing we call Sex Addiction is just a symptom of a much deeper, underlying disorder that we, or any 12 step group or any counselor cannot change.
We are just pissing against the wind if we try. ~ JoAnn
At this point, I want to be optimistic. I look at myself, a food addict. As much as I REALLY want to kick my habit, up until this point, I haven’t beaten it. Maybe I haven’t had the right tools or correct support system (I’ve done Weight Watchers, eDiets, seen a therapist, attended a Dr office pecializing in it over the years) but almost every month of every year I keep trying something new or one thing different. I see friends around me struggle with weight, lose for a bit like I did and gain it all back, some quit trying, but some actually pull it off. They lose the weight ad keep it off. I look at those ppl and have hope. I see it can be done, so I keep trying. Will I succeed? I don’t know, but I want it more than anything. Maybe before just wasn’t the right time.
http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/ Dances with Fat. Best blog ever about Health at Every Size. 95% of all diets fail.
deedee,
Bravo for trying. You will succeed!
But, going on a weight program, or even being a food addict as you call yourself, is so, so much different that what these men do.
Eating a quart of Häagen-Dazs, or scarfing down two bags of Oreo cookies in one sitting, or not being able to take off and keep off those extra pounds will not destroy your marriage, nor will it harm your children or ruin your finances.
I am not diminishing the possibility that you may have some personal issues, but I am saying that your problem probably can be overcome with counseling and will power because it is not a part of your core personality.
I think we have a bit of misunderstanding with these types of discussions. Many of the Sisters have overcome alcohol and drug addictions and have been sober for long periods of time.
I think the flaw here is thinking that the sexual behaviors of these men are the same as food, alcohol or drug addictions.
Yes, there is a chemical component to what they do. But, you know what, there is also a chemical component to loving someone and enjoying intimate sex too.
So the chemical component is merely a piece of their fucked up, disordered personality.
I think some of us feel that if we say there is no hope for these guys that we are also saying that there is no hope for any of us who struggle with other addictions.
I think this is flawed thinking. ~ JoAnn
Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. The fact that I’m even asking that question shows what a fucked-up roller coaster ride this all is. I was all set to leave my SAH and we discussed it on NYE, that I want to seperate. He was surprised – not sure why when at the MC session on 12/20, I told him that was what I wanted. He thought since we played nice over the holidays, that gave him a glimmer of hope. Anyway, after that discussion, a few hours later, feeling sentimental, I guess, I stupidly told him that I didn’t want to separate, that I wanted us to be a family but he needs to stop lying and get better. Ugh! Why did I say that? I meant it when I said it but that feeling passed within a few hours so why couldn’t I keep my damn mouth shut?? Anyway, I woke up NY Day feeling really down and mad at myself for giving him hope. I was looking at the start of 2013 as a fresh start for me and the kids and the only way I could see that is if he is out of the house. So, now, he’s hell-bent on “winning me back” and wrote a list of all that he’s going to do to get better and be a better husband and father. I truely believe he wants to change but I honestly don’t know if he can do it. And, it’s just too little too late but yet it’s enough to keep me from asking him to leave.
Hi, FeelingConflicted..
I think..maybe.. they can get to a point where they’re not acting on the addiction (or whatever it really is). But I don’t think that’s the root of their problem in the first place. To my mind..which I never knew until I found this board.. the sexual behavior is just the symptom of the personality disorder underneath. And after discovery, it’s like a lot of veils come off all at once, and things we could tolerate before discovery..their lack of being present, rarely ever seeming fully genuine.. Those things are so hard to deal with in the wake of finding out that they had a secret life on top of everything else. But whether or not they’re too hard to deal with..I guess that depends on the individual woman and her individual circumstances, history, length of time with him, all that. I still don’t have an answer for that in my own case. The things about him that in the past I’d just put in the category of ‘nobody’s perfect’.. now they seem really glaring red flags of narcissism, and a big cause of me feeling that I’d been slowly evaporating over the last couple of decades. xoxo
p.s. Just read your last post, and wanted to add that having some time away from him..even if you haven’t made a firm decision to leave him.. could be the best thing you’ve ever done for yourself.Wow! Love this thread! Annie- very thoughtful
Comment! And JoAnn- you blew me away with your analogy. Spot on. Thank you!!!FC…do not kick yourself for “giving in” … It hurts to see good women reprimanding themselves here. Why? Because I do it, too, and I know how shitty it feels (actually, it’s how I spent the bulk of my day yesterday. Argh!). What we’re trying to navigate is devastating and messes with our minds. I read a few pages of a book on self-compassion to get me out of the proverbial crapper yesterday – happy to send you the name if you want it. Now, I will stop preaching and try to take my own advice!!
I think that they can stop the behavior – but the “hole” in their souls will always be there. Sometimes the “hole” is big and festering (e.g. with PDs) and other times, it can be healed to some extent – but it will always be there. And it varies from one to another on what they turn to to fill it. (God, other addictions, the original addiction).
I would really like to ask the Weiss’s, Dr Minwalla, etc as to how many “addicts” that they have treated that have had a shift in thinking and behavior for a sustained (e.g. 15 years+ period of time). That would be a very useful information.
Addictions are addictions. I actually think that there are more similarities than dissimilarities. The damage that each has, though, differs. And the one our SA has, sadly, is a very personal one for us.
Deb
I cant say its not possible because i was addicted to sex. I cheated on every bf. been with multiple partners and was unprotected. I didnt think any thing of it. I met strangers just to have sex. Do i condone my actions? No. Do i wish i could take it all back seeing as i have been the mistress many times. But i did change. I can say from the day i got with my husband never once have i been with another guy. I believev any addict can change. it will take time, and its going to be hard… but its possible.
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