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Hi all,
I am still processing and integrating what I heard and saw yesterday at the end of my h’s intensive at ISH. I met with Minwalla for about an hour, and then my h joined me for another hour. Here are the basics: 1. He passed the poly.
2. He wants to stay in the marriage (but who knows what that really means because he generally gives the “right”, but not necessarily “real” answer)
3. None of his psych tests were valid. He didn’t “fake” good or bad, just the answers were so inconsistent, that none of it made any sense to Minwalla or my h. For example, the test determined he was “lacking in ambition”- which is probably one thing that is definitely not true of him. So the only conclusion Minwalla could reach was that his self-delusion is so pervasive that nothing makes sense. ?!?
4. He needs intensive therapy with an individual therapist who also has experience and understanding of sex addiction, and Minwalla had no recommendations. He thought my h’s current therapist was ineffective ( I agree with that), but he had no suggestions. I showed him Victoria’s list, and of the three I printed out for him- the ones that sounded the best to me- he knew 2 of them and gave them both an unequivocal thumbs-down, and the other one, he didn’t know and couldn’t say.
5. My h agreed to the post-nup terms.
6. We left with an aftercare plan, but it was obviously boilerplate, even with someone else’s name on the inside of the report. I did not think the aftercare plan was specifically targeted to the needs of my h- to the extent that he is any different than any other sa. Pretty much just therapy, therapy, and more therapy.
So that’s it. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. On the positive side, Minwalla totally gets the partner point of view and he is able to pass it over to the sa in a non-threatening way.
On the negative side, the whole thing sounded like we could spend ooooooodles of money and the rest of our time on this green earth and still have nothing to show for it. There was very little hope offered. I have a sense that ISH is spread too thin. They don’t seem to personalize or tailor their program specifically enough to the needs of the sa in the intensive. Maybe they would in an individual intensive. I felt like all the shit was kicked up, but then just left with it all swirling around and no place to go to organize it or clean it up. Unsettling.
I am questioning whether I will go to the partner intensive. I’m not sure what it will give me. I know I am traumatized. I know what that means. I don’t know that I want all that shit stirred up to be sent home to put it all back together again.
Just my Monday morning musings. This might change.Oh Jo, I wish you’d gotten some clearer answers and a better action plan. That must be disheartening. I wish for clarity for you in all of this. Not what’s best for your h or what the dr. thinks is best but what serves you. Maybe I’m overstepping ….just hoping for the truth You need to come through.
I’m glad your h agreed to a Postnup at least.
Hi Jo, its good to hear from you. Thank you for sharing with us your experience at ISH. I can understand why you feel frustrated.
I don’t understand why Minwalla has no recommendations? I keep hearing this and it seems odd. Thanks for running by the phone list of names with him too, I appreciate it. Which 2 did he give the thumps down to? When you say someone else’s name on the aftercare plan, do you mean another client?
Jo, I’m glad you’re home safe and sound! It sounds like a lot to take in and I really appreciate you sharing your initial thoughts with us. This was really good information for me since I have been thinking about insisting that my H go to one of the intensives but perhaps it won’t really accomplish what I want? I know YOU understand the harm and trauma that has been done to you but do you think your H understands it or understands it better after the intensive? That is why I want my H to go – to shake him out of this “I was increasingly unhappy in the marriage” attempt at blame shifting into a real understanding of the damage he has done to me, the marriage and our children.
Victoria, he gave a thumbs down to Michael Dunn (Georgia) and Bill Bercaw (California). I also asked him about John Watterson (Texas) , and he didn’t have an opinion about him, because he didn’t know anything about him.
Victoria, yes, it was another clients name on the typewritten plan. My h’s name was on the front title page, but another person’s name (assuming it was a former client: “Mr. X”) was on the inside pages that described the recommended treatment.
Regarding the postnup, I just spoke to my attorney, and she said she is too impacted in her practice to take on the postnup. She also said the postnup agreements have a very hard time holding up in court. Here’s what she wrote in her email:
“You will recall that we talked about the fact that these post-nuptial agreements are tricky as you have a fiduciary duty to take no action that will take any unfair advantage of him.” I think she thinks I should not spend the time or money on a post-nup, and just wait until we actually divorce and then try to negotiate what I want in mediation. We could spend thousands of dollars drafting a post-nup (each spouse is required by law to have their own attorney involved in the drafting and negotiation of the post-nup), and then it not even hold up in court.I think what is clear for me is that this is a not an easy, slam-dunk. A 9 day intensive at Minwalla’s did not solve anything- in some ways, it just kicked up all the shit with no resolution offered other than a broad hopelessness and future of ongoing outpouring of time and money. Maybe that’s realistic, maybe not. Maybe that’s just my h, and Mr. X. Maybe that’s everyone’s h. I couldn’t tell. I have a call in to ISH to ask for a phone call with Minwalla. I think I need to have more questions answered.
Daisy, they spent a brief amount of time on partner trauma (maybe an hour or two on the last day?), but the recommendation is that the sa come back for the additional 4 day “intensive on partner trauma for the sa”. Another 4 days, another 5 grand, I presume. Honestly, it’s starting to feel like a huge money pit. I think there might be a one day option for the sa to go to a partner-trauma workshop, but I’m not sure. I think my h can say the words that he understands, but I don’t know that he really, really, gets it. I think the 9 day intensive did not go into it that much, really, so I guess your h would have to go to that particular program if that is what you are primarily interested in him getting. The intensive seems more focused on psycho-education about sex addiction, identification of core childhood wounds, and some introduction to behavioral/cognitive strategies for addressing the addiction.All good stuff, but more generic than specific, it seemed to me. Like maybe a good workbook with a therapy guide would do the same. Minwalla did most of the educational piece- lecturing in the mornings- and the other therapists were the guides in the group, so I don’t think Minwalla worked intensely with the participants or got to know them very well, actually.
Jo, my husband went to the 6 day intensive and came back with no recovery plan. He went back for a Saturday a month later to “shore up the plan” with Dr. Minwalla, and it still wasn’t shored up. He’s going back next week for three days with Dr. Minwalla to “shore up the recovery plan.” He’s 3 1/2 months out from his initial 6 day intensive. In the meantime, he’s been triangulating our daughter, even more snarky and manipulative with me than usual when we do have contact, and desperately wants to talk to me about how I need to go to Dr. Minwalla, because “this isn’t all on him, you know, it’s my issues and failures, too.” My husband has never done a group thing at ISH, it’s been personal time and therapy with Dr. M. I know that I am divorcing him, but have been waiting to see if my husband would become a little more human so that the process would be easier. I’m going to wait until after next week, but I don’t have any hope that he’s going to change and be nicer in the divorce.
Courtney, hm…6 individual intensive days with Minwalla himself and no recovery plan or improvement? Have you had a phone consult with Minwalla and asked him his impressions or why there’s no plan? I thought maybe my h didn’t have much hope because he’s hopeless and/or because he didn’t get to really work with Minwalla much by himself.
God, this is so sad to hear. Maybe Minwalla’s best gift is just validating us.
I wondered how he had time to do all that he did. It seems like he’s herding these guys thru like cattle Jo.
Disappointed to hear this.
So I guess what I’m taking from this is that if you are going to spend money on Minwalla it may be that the money is better spent dealing with our own trauma and going ourselves rather than sending our Hs since there seems to be little that can be done with them in either an individualized intensive or in a group intensive. Perhaps Bev’s H coming back as a human being was the exception rather than the rule? Not knocking Minwalla at all, after all, he’s working with semi-human material at best.
I did, I’ve talked to Dr. M a few times. Initially, he didn’t have a plan, because they had “so much to talk about and deal with in those 6 days they they ran out of time”. My husband went back for a day in july to finish up and they “didn’t have time”, but Dr. M said his local therapist could/should finish up the plan. Apparently that didn’t happen and now 2 1/2 months after that, Dr. M has decided that he needs to finish up the plan. Who knows if they will “have time?”
I think he does validate us, and does a good job passing it over to our sah’s. But that’s only one piece in the big picture of what it takes to recover from addiction and then heal the marriage. I am thinking my h should take the partner trauma program- not me- at this point, and that might help in any further dealings with him, either in the marriage or out.
Daisy, I don’t think I need to go to Minwalla to deal with my trauma. I think Minwalla gets it- totally- as well as anyone does- but maybe I’d rather take that 6 grand and go on a vacation, rather than get validated for something I already know. Now maybe I could see my h going to Minwalla for the trauma intensive.
Courtney, what you report is really discouraging. I just wonder if “the plan” is any different than all the other aftercare plans? Basically, therapy, therapy, and more therapy- by no one they can recommend. :/Interesting, too, Jo. My h told me that Dr. M said his current therapist is not qualified or able to do what he needs, but he has no recommendations for who would be.
I know Jo, I don’t think you need to go to Minwalla to deal with your trauma either! I was speaking in general terms, not about you specifically. I think you have a very good grasp of what you’ve gone through and what you need to do to take care of yourself. And I’m with you on the vacation – a nice villa in Greece is calling my name. 🙂
Daisy, I knew that’s what you meant. I have already signed up for the partner intensive and paid my deposit, but I am seriously thinking about seeing if we can transfer those funds for my h to go to the trauma intensive for the sa. He needs it more than I do.
Jo, I like the vacation idea. There’s only so much time and money one can spend on this endless crap. And Minwalla is great about understanding the trauma aspect, and advocating for partners, but I get the feeling there’s a bit of disorganization going on down there. xoxo
jo, i didn’t read all the posts except yours. i want to respond anyway… i’m glad that the psych eval was interpreted to be inconclusive. i know that must be frustrating. i had an awful experience with DWs psych eval at SRI. it read like a fucking bio and put DW in such a nice light (insert sarcasm). i felt that the agenda behind the evaluation was to protect DW from litigation. total bullshit.
even though it must be yet another mind fuck, at least minwalla is admitting that the results are inconclusive. better than results stacked in favor of a SA. that scared the shit out of me – the legal ramifications of DWs ‘evaluation’ left me speechless…
and i understand feelign cookie cutted by a treatment center. i have heard such good things about minwalla that i would hope it would be different.
and i also get not wanting to spend tons of $ on this shit…
you know, lili from posarc recommended that i see a good trauma therapist locally every two weeks and read ‘the language of emotions’ by karla maclaren instead. she suggested that you can only do so much trauma work safely in a week or two…
i’m not saying don’t go to minwalla. but her recommendation worked for me, it allowed me to go at a slower pace when dealing with the trauma, i didn’t have to go away from my son, and it was cheaper. and also, my therapist is always here if i need her…
just an alternative suggestion.
xo
As disappointed as I am to hear most of this, I AM tickled that he gave that goober-shit Michael Dunn a thumbs-down.
Thanks for letting us know, Jo. And thanks for saving me some serious bucks. Instead of going to ISH, I have scheduled 2 weeks of “therapy” on an island in the BVI.
Bora Bora is perfect for a relaxing trauma retreat. I might be going soon.
March, do tell? Was Dunn your SA’s therapist? My search doesn’t work.
Hi Jo – sent you a message but wanted to respond here too for the benefit of those going to ISH soon – my h went to the sexual addiction induced trauma workshop not the intensive – he had already done that stuff somewhere else and my reaction to that was “it is still all about him and I don’t want to hear about his pain I want him to hear about mine” – so maybe that comes later in all of their, but I totally get the money pit.
I went to ISH for me and only me – that he is going now is for him, and yes our sons because I see him so therefore them benefiting. Would that have happened elsewhere – I don’t know, it wasn’t? Important to let them know about privacy concerns and whether you are getting what you expect, want, need…the operative word is you – no magic bullet as we all know, but a delicate calibration of risk/benefit, cause/effect, – love Meg
Hi Jo – sent you a message but wanted to respond here too for the benefit of those going to ISH soon – my h went to the sexual addiction induced trauma workshop not the intensive – he had already done that stuff somewhere else and my reaction to that was “it is still all about him and I don’t want to hear about his pain I want him to hear about mine” – so maybe that comes later in all of their recovery, but I totally get the money pit.
I went to ISH for me and only me – that he is going now is for him, and yes our sons because I see him so therefore them benefiting. Would that have happened elsewhere – I don’t know, it wasn’t? Important to let them know about privacy concerns and whether you are getting what you expect, want, need…the operative word is you – no magic bullet as we all know, but a delicate calibration of risk/benefit, cause/effect, – love Meg
If we ploughed all our therapy money into property we could set up a very nice place for the therapists among us and hospitality experts and home schoolers to set up a safe haven to deal with partner trauma… I’m telling you we are experts on what we need. And we need to let go of their shit.
It’s really hard but They’ve fooled us for years. They are so convinced of their “truth” that the only dealing with it is to leave them to their truth. There are some men who get “it” I’m sure but I don’t know if a marriage can survive it if you’re a smart, savvy woman who is able to call them on their bullshit and unprepared to drink the koolaid.
I’m also convinced that these men need consequences – it’s just shit that the consequences don’t come with legal redress and financial safety for the partner, or remove the whole question of coparenting out. These measures in the divorce courts would make the whole “I’ve too much to lose by kicking his ass out” so much easier and protect women from the patriarchal system designed to keep us enmeshed.In the meantime I’m sorry you’re swirling in the shit again and hope you are ok x
Hi Jo,
As usual I find your POV enlightening.
I think we are coming to some clarity on the current treatment tracks even within the trauma-based model for partners.Here’s my take:
I believe that the SA are not going to get the right treatment until our experience is well understood. Dr. M seems to be leading the way in that area among therapists, and the consequences for people understanding what our experience is and what these guys are really doing to us, are that no one knows what to do with these guys after all.
I think your sense of the practcie being stretched thin is about this very thing.
These SA’s need care beyond the capacity of most therapist working in the area of sex addiction, and the prognosis for recovery is very grim. IMO. This slow realization is changing everything.
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