A tough question…bear with me!

I understand your point very well ZG and I agree with you, there was something in me that made me look the other way to his personality flaws that were apparent even when we were dating ( red flags) screaming red red red be careful but I chose not to hear any of those inner voices,,,I am looking so hard into that now, into why I chose to look the other way, and not to hear any of my intuitive warning voices, not only that I ignored the red flags in the begining of our relationship but I even tolerated mental and emotional abuse for over 7 years of marriage,,,my execuse I was very busy with work and being pregnant 3 times in less than 4 years, and also not knowing any better ( my mom was somewhat verbally and emotionally abusive while we were growing up so I thought of his behavior as almost normal in life),,but still this was not enough execuse to tolerate lots of manipulation, gaslighting, putting down, yelling screaming, very abusive fights,,,etc for many years

so that is what I am doing now,,,trying to look inside me and see why I did what I did,,I think if we really reach to the core of the matter on how we tolerated such emotional detachement such emotional abuse for many years, we will be able to detach from them now much easier and then move on in the future toward healthier relationships,

if I can heal those deep old wounds inside me I think I will make much better choices now and in the future, and that does not mean at all that I have really any major flaws in my own psyche, but that there is something went way wrong through the years that I had tolerated his abusive behaviors and not discovered all of what he is really about much earlier,,,,

“I completely bought the nice guy routine & had so much invested once the facade started to crumble.” That fits me to a “T”, Zumba Girl.

I also bought into a lot of stuff being my issues. I had a difficult childhood, and I definitely have abandonment issues. So when he emotionally detached and showed no empathy, I knew something was wrong, but somehow it kept getting turned back to me, and I let it. I didn’t have any “proof” except my perception, and it was very easy to be gaslighted- especially when he was a doctor and he was supposed to work long hours so of course he was tired, couldn’t be home on time, had lots to do once he was home, etc. I was just demanding too much from him because of my own abandonment issues, or so I was told and so I mostly believed. But my gut told me differently, so I spend a lot of years confused and trying to sort it all out in therapy. And then I tried to explain it by the whole men and women are just different, and I just had to accept that and find other ways to find fulfillment in life- it wasn’t going to come from him. So I guess I knew something was wrong, but I didn’t have an explanation, so I didn’t know how to fix it. I kept looking and looking, but I didn’t have that crucial piece of the puzzle, that he was an active sex addict.

I don’t really understand the whole personality disorder thing. I think many of my STBX’s family are narcissists. I don’t know if they are hard-wired that way or if it’s environmental. I am always a bit skeptical about the preponderance of environmental explanations for psych issues. It wasn’t too long ago that autism was blamed on the mother being too distant. I also know I blamed a lot of my issues on my parents, and now I see my son (who is a lot like me) doing many of the same things, and I am a completely different parent. I think a lot of temperament is hardwiring. Our families help mold and shape us, to be sure. They do things, and we react in either healthy ways or unhealthy ways which usually have a lot to do with our built-in temperament. I have also heard that PTSD from childhood trauma is often misdiagnosed as borderline personality disorder, especially in women. I’ve seen how quickly people try to stick labels on my son who has had to suffer through tons of screening and testing demanded by the schools over and over again only to be found to be profoundly gifted and introverted time and time again (and we are about to do another round, this time for the courts and the psych is already insisting on screening that has been done at least 3 times in the past by private psychologists as well as school personnel). So I take a lot of psychology with a grain of salt.

I think they suck us in with their “too good to be true, perfect, nice guy act” during the first month of dating. They rush us and profess their feelings and we’re hooked. Then, we spend the next 2 years, 12 years, 22 years trying to get “that guy” back. We think THAT GUY is who he truly is. We want THAT GUY… we know he “has it in him”… “deep inside that is the real him” … there’s no way we could be “that wrong about him”. It’s easy to ignore and minimize all the red flags.

There’s an awesome site called “Baggage Reclaim” that focuses on Emotionally Unavailable Men & Narcissists…she says that dating should be a “discovery period”. Now, when my 25-year-old niece is meeting and starting to date a new guy….we use flag-shaped sticky notes to jot down our observations. Green (good), yellow (use caution, keep an eye on it) and red (run!). The guy gets two reds and he’s out!!

finally faced it- “I think they suck us in with their “too good to be true, perfect, nice guy act” during the first month of dating. They rush us and profess their feelings and we’re hooked.”

Ditto! I am so glad I am not the only one.

I totally agree finally with your excellent post. I wished I would have been more aware but I was so naive.

And some still are or trying to…..

As I look back and reflect on why I picked my h, it is complicated, but obvious to me now, and I am now able to to identify the why’s.
At the beginning ofthe relationship, I felt I met this man who appeared perfect.He swept me off my feet -I was caught up in his false persona and I was hooked.
BUT, the signs were there. The 2nd month into dating when we were on a trip to St. Louis, I observed Steve looking compulsively (5-6X’s) at a gal sitting across from us in a restaurant. She was with her h. When I asked him what the attraction was, he told me their salads looked good and he was trying to figure out what kind they were.This was the first red flag, because a month later I was smart enough to hit him with it again, his story changed. He said he was looking because he thought he knew the guy. Everything else was perfect, so it didn’t totally click-I just thought it was strange. As I look back now, he was in a trance-like state. I had never seen that before, even in my nursing practice, so over my head it went, and I chose to ignore it.
As the months progressed, I noticed more and more of this behavior and I began to ask questions. I can’t even remember now how the subject of porn came up, I just remember I got answers in bits and pieces. The rest, most of you know. Steve had a phenomonal way of making things look like they weren’t what it looked like. Duh! So stupid!
He started going to a therapist, went to an intensive in L.A. and appeared to be motivated for change. But, that change never came, and he kept lieing and covering up. I only caught him 50% of the time, as he later admitted. I have no other excuses-his manipulation and charm kept me hooked. He did beat lie detector test which through me off.
Now, I have so much more insight than when this all this started, My patterns of picking emotionally unavailable men really sticks out. My first husband was schizotypal pd. I did this on a purely subconscious level, because I married him at the age of 17 to get out of a totally dysfunctional home. I was married to him 28 yrs. I stayed until the boys were through highschool. After I finished Nursing school I left.
My second husband was probably an SA, because I put a detective on him, and he felt he was meeting prostitutes when out of town.9mo into the marriage I divorced him. He was also charming and presented the persona of the wonderful guy syndrome. Like piller of the community, deacon in his church, very well liked and respected, etc. You know the drill. Again emotionally unavailable.
Oh ya, and then I did it again. The third husband was a pro golf instructor and totally emotionally unavailable. I found out later he had a history of losing jobs because he played around with his students. I divorced him after 9 mo. into the marriage.
I finally figured wtf do I seem to attract these crazy men!!
I was single 10 yrs. before meeting Steve, and thought I finally met Mr. Right, but he was the best at hiding his secret life of anyone I have ever met.During those 10 yrs., I met and dated many dysfunctional men and immediately got out- Usually 2 dates and out-I was very adept at knowing there were BIG issues-except STEVE- so I had to take a look at why this was.
Now, I can see that the relationship with Steve reeked
with trauma bonding issues from my childhood. He was the
exact replica of “Daddy”. Good looking, charming, “Mr. Personality,” and yes, even resembled my Dad in looks and build. My take on all this is that I was living out that script of a father who was a true Sociopath and involved in crominal activity. He emotional and physically abused me. My parents divorced when I was 13, and he never really took any interest nme- Ialways had to be the one to seek him out.Mymother was passive and an alcoholic, but I didn’t see any of that growing up. My sister (10 yrs. younger) was exposed to that, because she started the drinking after she married my step dad-who was an ass by the way. I found a swinging magazine with, ads on how to meet couples,on the closet shelf one time while visiting. I would have never pictured my mother to engage in that kind of behavior, but being as passive as she was and having an extreme low self esteem, I would guess he got her drunk and talked her into participating.
After my parent’s divorce, I had the sole responsibility of taking care of my sister (10 yrs. younger). I did this during my entire high school days-thus the care taking role developed. Then, I went into nursing and carried it on.
I know all the old timers on s.o.s know my story, but am telling it again so you new gals might be able to identify
some of the same characteristics.
I do believe SA’s pick us, but sometimes we pick them on a subconscious level-I did.
Sorry this is so long and drawn out, but so is my story.
I was trying to fix Steve like I couldn’t fix my dad. Sounds far fetched, but true.
Excuse the typos-did this really fast.
Hugs, everyone.

Julie, Diane said something a while back that I quote all the time because it really rang true for me. She said something like, ‘He groomed me to expect less and less from him..’ And I think it relates to your question as well. Because when she said that it made me ask myself, ‘Why did I let myself be groomed this way?’ Mind you, I don’t know if it’s always a deliberate grooming, but the end result is the same.. We get to a point where we just accept the detachment. It’s not so hard to do, if we’re the type of woman who second-guesses herself, or thinks she shouldn’t make a big deal out of things, or who thinks, ‘God knows I have enough of my own stuff, so this is just his stuff, and it’s not a big deal.’ I guess COSA would slap a label on our butts for thinking that way, but to my mind, it’s not label-worthy; it’s often just our way of trying to be reasonable and fair. I think I remember you saying you suffer from anxiety, and I do too. And maybe like me, you would say to yourself, ‘At least his detachment isn’t something that panics me?’ So it’s easier to just shrug it off. And if you think about how well our h’s were able to lead their secret lives, to a point that nobody who knew them would have ever in a million years suspected what was going on, it helps take away that feeling about ourselves, that sense of ‘What was wrong with me that I didn’t know who I was living with?’ We trusted and we compromised, that’s all. And why wouldn’t we? That’s what relationships are about. We just didn’t know we were dealing with men who’d taken lying and compartmentalizing to a level we’d never imagined. xoxo

I’ve been able to sum it up in many ways talking to my mom that shows how early on I ignored my gut feeling. When we met, dated and then got serious I kept thinking “what’s the catch? He’s such a great guy, great dad, hard worker, very loyal. I can’t believe his ex wanted out.”

Then a few months after marriage and we had our first BIG blow up and he yelled “Go fuck yourself” as he slammed shut the bedroom door (which no one’s done to me before) I still asked “what’s the catch?”

Then Sept 2009 came and h lied about watching porn on the PC which I later checked and found he flat out lied to my face.

This was the moment I said “Ohhhh, THIS is the catch.”

And so it began…..and none of it has been good, at all. Even when it’s supposedly “good”, it sucks.

Someone else may have already made this point, but we may not have seen the seriousness of their personality disorder when we first met and married them, because it may not have been as severe then. Looking back, I now see that his immaturity, etc., weren’t just due to his age. (He is 6 1/2 years younger than me.) Also, I think I wanted to explain all of that away because there was some good coming through. As the addiction worsened, as the bipolar swings got worse, and the narcissism became full blown, it was clear what I was dealing with. I think I missed some of it because it wasn’t all on the surface, or as bad, back at the beginning.

But, also, I think I explained away behaviors. Others in my family saw the seriousness from the beginning. I didn’t. Maybe it was my hopefulness that he would grow up.

What I need to learn it to see the signs sooner. (This is my second marriage to a narcissist . . . )