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I have been very vocal since joining SOS about what has been going on in my life with my SAH. My discovery was 11/4/12 and yes we had been down this road before about 13 yrs or so ago. I am betting he never stopped and he has admitted to looking at porn since at least 2004 following therapy the first time – he says he stopped for a couple of years. We have had no sex life but we did have closeness. I was happy the last 3-4 years and really had no idea this was still going on. He has failed his polygraph – he told me this – but he has refused to let me see the report which he said would be sent to him via email on Monday and he would forward to me. According to the Polygrapher whom I spoke to yesterday, my SAH refused to sign a waiver to give results to me or his therapist or his psychiatrist, so his telling me I would get to read the report was just another lie. He has admitted to having paid profiles on 2 adult dating websites – so I figure if he is admitting to 2, there must be more. Of course he tells me he never hooked up with anyone, even though he failed the poly which was a single issue test asking if he had ever had sexual contact with another woman while married to me.
My gut is telling me to run, fast and far with whatever I can get legally but now I wonder if I am moving too fast. The cost of a legal separation is $4000. The cost to have the computer from home forensically evaluated is at a minimum $7500 and could go as high as $10-12K. I caught him on his work laptop, but I do know there is some stuff on our home computer and I have not found any flash drives. (although I will start looking for those) I only have $12K in the bank. He is threatening to get his own attorney if I pursue any thing with my attorney – meaning property settlement or legal separation. Should I just say FUCK THAT and file for divorce or should I try to appease him for a year or so to start skimming money into a private account? His initial response to me finding out was “You will get the house and all of its contents and I will assume the debt”. Now it is, “I will only agree to what the law says is fair and equitable – I’m not stupid, and I won’t sign anything without an attorney looking out for me” Everything I read says I am smack in the midst of the trauma. My personality is to want to get things done yesterday if at all possible so I have been in GO mode since my discovery. I know he is lying; I know he is in denial; I know he stands to lose me and the kids and I think he has gone over the edge to a degree in his panic. He has said to my son several times – while crying “How did I get here?” His bubble has burst and no surprise to any of us – his thoughts are for himself.
Because he lives in Maryland for work, I really see him only on weekends and I do not even have to do that. He has not been coming home unless I have asked him to so that we could talk face to face. SO…knowing that divorce is most likely the outcome, I am wondering if I should spend the money to get whatever evidence I can get off of the computer now and put any other legal decisions on hold so that I can get some money squirreled away. The house needs a new roof and new carpeting before we could ever sell it. On Saturday he said he would take care of those things. If I were to ask today – no way. Would you cut your losses, go for the divorce , take what you get and start trying to heal in a new life or would you slow down, gather evidence or money and wait for awhile? I have read that no life changing decisions should be made in the midst of the trauma/crisis and at least for the first year yet I am charging ahead to try to out run the pain and hurt.
I am awake again in the middle of the night – but this time with a calm that is new in these last weeks and the thought to slow down feels almost powerful to me. Thoughts Sisters? I have 2 sons getting married next year and with the right medicine and some $$ being socked away, I think I might be able to stick it out to have a better plan in place when I am ready to pull the legal trigger. Especially because he does not even live in the same state as me. I know the email he sent to me that I posted was a threat if I proceeded legally – although in Mr Nice Guy speak – but is there a chance I could beat him at his own game since we do not live together anyway? My biggest concern with waiting would probably be that if he lost his job I could really be screwed financially – more then I think he would do to me now. At the same time if he thought I was still there – I believe his job would be safer. I have been able to diffuse his frustration at times with work issues – I have always been good at doing that for him – and this is a good job with an excellent salary. I could also go back to work full time and begin to sock away my salary – which he never asks for. It was always used for extras. I’d appreciate your thoughts. Please know before you respond that I do believe that my marriage is over and that my future is not with him. I just want to be smart about it. I tend to leap first and then realize the consequences. I NEED to do this right.I just woke up and have to get kids to school. Let me think on this one. I can see it both ways….
You are doing great Trish and we can figure this out between all of us. There are some savvy sisters on this site. At least give yourself permission to take today “off”. Don’t talk to lawyers, experts, or your H. Just relax and let it go today. In other words, do this on your time table. You have been thru the ringer several times over and I say it’s break time. Nothing is going to happen today.
Trish,
In general, I agree that you have dealt with a lot in a very short time. It’s okay if you want to give yourself some space to breath and process a bit.I don’t think there is a right or wrong way to proceed right now. A lot depends on your personality and tolerance level and also what he does/wants which you really have no control over.
Some things that come to mind…
What will your kids say/think if you stay? Will you explain it to them?If even you decide not to file, he might at any time.
Can you live with him now that he has shown his true colors? Can you live with yourself?
Will he even go back to his usual self if you did make nice? Once the cat was out of the bag with mine, he became insufferable and abusive, he never went back.
Maybe you can say buy yourself some time and say you want to think it through with a clear-head, you are emotional now, the holidays are hard enough already….and see if he comes around financially for that? Will he want to spend Christmas was the family then?
My initial thought is don’t go back now, Trish! Don’t let him off the hook for this behavior- he is going to be so much worse now that he knows he can get away with treating you like this, now that he knows you are scared.
But I know economic reality as well. So many put up with way too much because of that. You would not be the first. I did it- my goal was to make it until my son was at least in college, hopefully through. That was before I knew about hookers and orgies and that he has exposed my son to this.
It sucks that we even have to think this way. We are the mercy of criminals, sociopaths, narcissists, mentally-impaired men.
I don’t think you can really beat them at their own game. You can’t even play, you aren’t wired the way they are and they have been playing their whole lives.
Trish, my opinion is to hold to your current course. He has not followed through on a single promise he made to you or to your kids and that is under the very real threat of losing his family. I know you still love him (on some level) but I don’t think he has a prayer of getting help for himself if he doesn’t hit rock bottom and that will be watching you and the kids walk away from him and cut him off. IMO right now he is playing a desperate gamble hoping that you will back down and he can continue to do what he’s been doing and keep you and the kids in his life. Somewhere in one of your threads one of the sisters said (I’m paraphrasing) “if you still love him, you have to hold him accountable to save his life.” I think that’s true. Move the legal separation forward. It will give you some rights and some protection. And keep in mind, the pace changed, speeded up because of HIS actions, not yours. If he hadn’t started threatening you, and refusing to cooperate, this wouldn’t have happened. What you are doing now is protecting yourself and your family as best you can. You are doing a tremendous job. We are all so proud of you. I know it’s not easy, but we believe in you.
Love,
DaisyP.S. One final thought: I keep coming back to the Polygraph. He was willing to tell you that it was 100% deceptive but not show you the results? It must be bad Trish, REALLY bad for him to react like that. I think he must be really, really far gone in his addiction.
Daisy, I love your confidence.
What is it about these guys that makes such a mess out of strong, smart, amazing women when it comes to our relationships with them?
I keep coming back to one line Trish…
“My gut is telling me to run, fast and far with whatever I can get legally…”
The more I think about it and reading Daisy’s spot on thoughts…I think your best bet would be to follow your gut. The polygraph and how he so quickly changed his tune has me worried. Even if you could ‘play nice’ and position yourself better I don’t trust him. I know Nap and Cindy for sure got dumped by the monsters after they uncovered the lie. I know there is more.
The computer stuff may not be necessary in a divorce. That may be money you could save. You could hold off on that for now. You aren’t going to have a custody battle.
I agree with Bev (on most subjects) but regarding the computer in particular. Let that go for now or explore less expensive options. The costs you were quoted seem prohibitively high.
I think he googled all the stupid stuff that tells you how to beat a poly and actually thought he was smarter than the test. Typical SA. I bet he is furious at being outsmarted. I would go so far as to say his tears are real. These guys truly believe their own lies and that is the part we just do not grasp. We KNOW when we are lying.
It is so ingrained in their make up. It is their reality. It would be like failing a polygraph because your eyes are blue. We just have no idea how crazy all this shit is. My H actually told me he was able to justify the money he spent on hookers because a lot of guys buy boats or join country clubs and golf. Yes, he said that. He honestly did not understand how fucked up that ‘logic’ was.
I don’t trust them Trish. I just don’t trust any of them. I’m sorry.
My worldly friends all have told me, “Take the money and run.” These guys can fall and fall hard. You really don’t know what might be around the corner.
Trish, I know you are scared. I worry that making no decision now will leave you legally unprotected and at his mercy which would be okay if he were still in the pink bubble. But he’s not.
I keep having to tell myself to put my big girl pants on. I am doing things that I never in a million years thought I would be doing and it takes a lot of courage for me to get up and face each day knowing the man I thought I loved is just waiting for me to screw up so he can destroy me. Every word I say, everything I do can be used against me.
I know you have the strength, Trish. But I also know the fear. We will support you no matter what you do. We all have to find our own way.
I think you were worried about him trying to get the computer. Your attorney can drag that out a really, really long time.
Hi Trish,
IMO I would skip the legal separation and just file for divorce. It will be cheaper to go right to the divorce (if you know it’s over) otherwise you’re paying for both. Also, at anytime during a LS he could file for divorce.If you live I’m a no fault state and have no custody issues I wouldnt pay that much for the computer stuff. It may not make a hill of beans to the legal system / court, esp if your assets vs debt ratio is what you stated. They are both split.
He’s already talking out of both sides of his mouth about “How he’s going to take care of you”. From my own experience, kiss that goodbye and take care of yourself because they can get pretty ugly.
Thinking of you Trish. This is just my opinion and of course you need to do what you want and feel to do.
~Nap~
A no fault state and the 50/50 split are just guidelines. You CAN get more. I did. I spent 5 months gathering every shred of evidence out there… And it was my ace in the hole, (he knew I had it) but in the end, I didn’t even need it, we settled in mediation, I got a 60/40 Split- AND he had lost his job of 32 years 5 days before mediation.
So ANYTHING is possible. I say, go find your Pitbull attorney and get this done. I’m so sorry Trish…. But you will be happier down the road…. I promise….. You have caught him before….you had no sex life….. Gawd….my marriage all over again!! You need someone who puts YOU first!
I agree with those who say “take the fastest and least expensive way out.” He has already demonstrated that he is a liar. He can’t be trusted or relied upon in any way. He will go back on his promises. It’s like the situation in the old thread that FC bumped yesterday: the marriage is already over.
Dear Trish,
In theory, I agree with Daisy and the others but it seems there are two separate issues here- the marriage and financial security. You have to decide hwta you want to make your main priority? It sounds like you thought if he had live sex that would be a final deal breaker. Now you have good reason to believe he did just that, but as you can see feelings do not die overnight. Our feelings can make us very vulnerable. I just want to add that based on what you have said re: the poly ect I am CERTAIN he has been physically unfaithful to you so I think we can put that assumption into the mix. There is little other possible explanation for him failing the poly AND hiding the results IMO.
If that fact leads you to be CERTAIN that your marriage is over, then I think any actions that feather your financial nest are the good ones to take. Now…if you still hold out hope for your marriage you have to take a different tact and you have to proceed as planned, completely cut him off and force him to see what he is really losing. That approach doesn’t allow anytime to hide money, plan how to maximize what you get out of this divorce or other tactics that might allow you to lull him to your benefit.
If you are now at the point, that you know it is over no matter what he does, then you may want to think about slowing down. Only if you are REALLY sure that he will continue to pay and not turn the tables on you. (seems likely as he doesn’t want to lose his kids) That is a tough call, but most of them want to avoid divorce and I have personally used that fact to my advantage. I separated from mine for about 18 months before he played the “job” card and began to say he couldn’t cope and needed to quit. Around about that time my parents began dying and I got overwhelmed and he did help me a great deal and I made the decision I was NOT going to end up destitute. Here we are. Many will regard that as selling out and I do too …but it’s what I chose at the time and what I choose now.It is important for me to add that I had NOTHING financial to gain by divorce, would have found myself in a very precarious position, have a son with big health issues and I knew with CERTAINTY that mine would continue working and handing me the cash. My H works away, in another country and is rarely home, so it was much easier to do than a day to day cohabitation. I read here what was happening to other women who were dependant financially and it scared the shit out of me AND enraged me. So I traded financial security for the satisfaction of saying “FUCK THAT” because I was afraid that once that satisfaction wore off and I was eating dog food – I might not feel I had won the battle. 😉 Now I have to reinforce, I had already dramatically shifted the balance of power back to myself and I handle my husband much the way Bev does. I take no prisoners and I don’t tolerate any abuse or bullshit.I do not agonize over anything he may or may not be doing. I have full access to all financial decisions and he works VERY, VERY hard.It is not a trade off without cost by any means but I can do what I like and my life is my own in most respects. Detachment and distance and time dull the pain somewhat and eventually you can begin to live again…. even if you remain legally married. I think of it as an emotional divorce. It cannot work if you are wanting things from your husband that he cannot or will not give. That is a sure trip to misery and desperation. I lived through that with my H also and it was a time of chaos, unbearable pain and insanity. You are so fresh to this that you have to really confirm 2 points before you decide to stall and buy yourself more time. Are you emotionally able to detach and pursue more financial security without being devastated by contact with him and are you absolutely certain he will maintain the current financial status quo while you feather your nest? Would he perhaps agree to a 6 month- 1 yr separation where he pays but stays out of the picture? Or will he quickly want things back to normal with him home every weekend? These are questions only you can answer because you know him best of all. You would have to let your kids know what you were doing and why you were doing it. It sounds like your finances are not optimal enough for you to be secure , though there are women here who have left with alot less. It is a very personal choice and very dependant on the circumstances of each woman. JoAnn, Liza and I all manage to remain married, without our husbands completely driving us insane. I suspect it is because we don’t really love them anymore….not in that way where your heart can be ripped out of your chest with any new discovery. I think you do still love your husband ,so it is really hard BUT I also know that love can dim considerably when they start showing their other side. I hope I have not confused you further. Normally, it is best to just get out but when we are older we do have to think about money and where we will get it. I regarded financial destitution as just another loss for me. I really couldn’t see my way clear to another man so I opted to stay…for now? We can make choices and we can change them later. It won’t always be this hard, Trish. You will discover fortitude you didn’t know you had. Life will hold promise again. You will survive no matter what way you choose, just make sure you choose YOU in all scenarios. You can no longer count on him to have your best interest at heart. He is now the enemy of your happiness and you must act accordingly. Which direction you take is up to you. I trust your judgement.
Karen xxSL,
I know I got more too than the 50/50 and my xhda got fired 3 wks before the divorce settled. If a divorce settlement is not reached, in the county I live in, the judges default to the law 50/50.
~NapRe: the cost of the computer forensics.
The guy who found the 8G of porn on the laptop my husband gave me charged $85.
BUT he found it, tried to download it to a flashdrive, and it self destructed, all the files were gone. All I have now is his word that it existed. But my H did not deny it. I have been told it would hold as evidence if he were called to the witness stand.
We live in the same state. I was told by 3 attorneys that all that is worth $0 in court. I need pics of HIM with another woman, and proof of the date, that it was after our marriage.
Trish, do you actually think you can get that from the computers? All the porn, it’s demoralizing and something they don’t want known, but it’s not cash in court.
So, in my opinion, it’s not worth the money to have that data drawn out.
As far as staying and putting money back, he’s been changing the rules continuously. He’s been on unemployment before. He’s not a stable risk, there. Anything could change. Mine lost a six figure job because of his porn habit two months after my discovery, and now we ALL (he in Texas, me and my children here in NC, and his exwife and three other children) live on a LOT less. And I figure it’s a ticking clock, he’s going to do the same thing and get fired from this job, too. I am trying so hard to get work so that we are not reliant on him.
I wouldn’t count on slowly building up a stash. You might not have that option for long. In fact, he’s aware, mad, scared, and in self defense mode. He’s already using your resources to pay down what he said he would pay. It’s not even been a month. He’s a bad bet, financially.
trish,
i so feel for you, being in severe trauma and trying to make decisions.
i’m 8 months in (about) and i still find the decisions daunting.
for me, the 2 most important factors are:
1. i know it’s over with DW. he will always lie to me, in recovery or not. for my own personal integrity, i need to leave. i want to start a new life. i’m 44. half way there. i can live the other half without this shit. since i know it’s over, it’s no longer a matter of if, but when
2. the timing of when i do this is based on how strong i am. there are tons of other factors i can pretend matter. and they do, security for my son, when we can sell the house quickly.
but in the end, they are details that will work out how they work out.
now, don’t get me wrong, i’m being strategic. i’m going to try to get the best possible situation, do my best to out manipulate the manipulator.
but i know in the end, i can’t really control that. he may get the upper hand. if we end up in court, we might have an asshole judge. who knows. i’ll do my best to protect myself.
but the most important thing to me, is when will i be the strongest. it will take me a few months to get everything organized, my work is a jungle maze of grants, project and commissions, it’s hard to explain how my career works to lawyers and judges because it’s not linear. it will take me a few weeks of preparing spread sheets just to explain my meagre living clearly.
but most importantly, i know it will take me a few months to get STRONG enough to leave this man who has been abusing me for 22 years. as an independent woman, it’s hard for me to admit this, i’m a battered woman.
so my advice is to ask yourself those two questions
1. do you KNOW it’s over
2. when will you be strong enough to act.if the answer to #1 is yes, then you also know it’s a matter of when, not if.
then act as soon as you are strong enough. on your schedule. no one can tell you when that is…
much love,
lisa
I think with him being in another state he basically is a free man. Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior or present in this case. Having said that, I think I would drop $3K on a pi to tail him on a weekend that he’s at his apt.
You can’t put a price on good photos but a great attorney can! 🙂 Just ask Bev about her pi.
That one weekend will tell you more than any computer evidence if he’s caught.
I might add that I wasn’t LOOKING for anything when the porn was found. I had taken in the laptop for routine servicing because it crashed. The repairman called me and said “There’s something you need to know, I’m worried about your son…”
I didn’t have passwords to the user he was finding all that on, either. I had NO CLUE that stuff or user was even there. I was using that computer for homeschooling a 10 yo boy.
Hi trish,
what Daisy and Karen said.
Decide your biggest priority.
If it’s gathering money–set a # goal and deadline to begin divorce.
If it’s getting divorced—move now while he has not quite settled comfortably into his cruelty, and the opinion of the kids still matter.
IMO.
But I’m really sorry this is just so awful Trish. I hope you will have a sign today that there is goodness still and that some of it is kept just for you.
d.xoTrish,
I’m so sorry….definitely slow down a bit. Breathe.
My best advice is taken from my two marriages.
First one – he was a batterer and I didn’t particularly like him (lol). I was only married one year. I filed for divorce and never spoke to him again. End of story.
Second one (with my SAH). Married 25 years with four kids in the house. I actually like and love the guy (putting his SA crap to one side, which is hard). He is a one sick puppy. I’m going to wait and see if he can stay the course on the recovery front. I’m not emeshed with him anymore and can walk at any time. It’s taken me a year to get to that point. It’s not something that you can switch off quickly. (at least I can’t). He was just like your SAH (ask anyone on this board). He refused to do anything I asked – and finally said he would do a poly but I said no because I knew he would flunk it. I was advised to see how he did on the recovery front for a year – so I did. He is now in solid recovery (from what I can see) and I do keep surveilance on him from time to time which is boring me. He is transparent and is fervent. I go with my gut which thankfully seems to be more attentive since discovery over a year ago. My point is – do you love/like the guy? I know there are some on here that say that they can never be decent human beings – but I have seen some that are. I’m betting that mine just might make the 5-10% – time will tell. He is a stubborn bastard. I’m not saying that your SAH will “find the light” – it’s a journey and there were times (e.g. last Christmas) that I decided to leave – he could sense it and he went to his first meeting. Denial is slow to dissolve. They used their “secret world” like a blankie and don’t like to give it up. I think that’s why some CSATs say wait a year. But during that time period – disengage. Give yourself a list of things that you need to see to even think about reconciling and a time limit. If it doesn’t happen then you will have time to get yourself ready to exit. Work on yourself. You are in trauma mode right now. Do NOT talk to your SAH – he is just going to make you batty. Stay away from him as much as possible. You can not heal with his denial, minimization, etc. going on. It’s worse than the actual behavior as you will question your sanity. Tell him unless he is doing serious recovery efforts – then you will NOT talk to him. Advise your kids to do the same.
I can tell you that he HAS been with live women – if that’s a deal breaker – then file for divorce and never look back.
We love you…..you are going through the really tough part right now.
Take care of yourself today,
Deb
Trish, I’ve thought about you and your question at random times over the past few days. I’ve thought, “Wow! I thought I was moving fast, and so does my counselor, in a positive sort of way.” You’ve gotten some very good advice from Karen on this thread. You have to figure out, will I be better off financially if I bolt, or will I be better off financially, if I move more slowly? Emotionally, in spite of the previous things that happened 13 years ago, I personally feel you are moving way to fast. Slow down, but slow down, only if you can afford to financially. I put financial stability way at the top, even over what would be best for your emotions at the moment.
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