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I have just posted a very important article that appeared in my favorite magazine, The Humanist.
It says so eloquently all the same things that I have been saying for over a decade.
Just click the menu above ‘JoAnn’s Editorials’ or click the link below.
I hope all of you will add your comments here or under the article.
http://sisterhoodofsupport.com/finally-a-voice-of-reason-about-sex-addiction/
I wanted to pull a few quotes to put here, but the whole article is so full of quotes that we could fill an entire warehouse with our SOS pillows.
It’s long, but worth every second you spend reading it.
I think I should interview this man. ~ JoAnn
HA! I am finally vindicated by a smart person. I posted my reply and JoAnn, you have my permission to delete it. I am sick to death of this shit being labeled an addiction. Part of my “trauma” is because I am being pressured into believing that my perfectly intelligent, successful, capable, husband is “addicted” to hookers…….It just doesn’t pass the smell test.
It is particularly good. Can I send a link to my husband as he hates religion… He might be able to find comfort in a humanist approach!
“The therapy model starts with ‘you’re responsible for your choices; I wonder why you keep doing what gives you what you say you don’t want?'” Hurrah! It seems like my H’s therapist gets it. My H told me that he is frequently asked “Why do you think you gave yourself permission to do _________?” I have absolutely no interest in brain chemistry, or FOO issues, or PDs or any other “excuse” for why my H did what he did. I just want him to stop giving himself permission to do things he knows are going to hurt me and our kids. Stop being a selfish prick and think of your family before you think of yourself. Period.
I have never believed it was an addiction…but then you all know that. I have always said it is important what we call it clinically, because what we call it clinically determines how we treat it. Beyond that, as wives….if we cannot blame their sexual activity on an illness, perhaps we will wake up and call what was done to us what it actually is. Abuse.
It’s not an addiction. It is some type of twisted perverted reward system they allow themselves to have. That paired with a personality disorder, fucked up family of orientation issues, a warped sense of reality and a giant squeeze of their inflated ego. And they drink this cocktail for breakfast everyday – just like their mommy’s told them to.
But let me tell you what I really think…….!
My h was home last weekend and we talked. he said that the reason he stopped seeing the CSAT, was that he wasn’t getting anything out of the sessions. he said he is continuing with the psychiatrist because he feels he is getting something out of those sessions. He told me though that the Psychiatrist does not believe he is a sex addict. i thought this was him minimizing what he has done. It made me angry, but after reading this article, it makes a bit more sense. He asked me if I would be willing to come up to MD to speak to this Dr who is also a sex therapist. So… if it is not an addiction then why go out to Minwalla? if psychotherapy is what is needed, is that what Minwalla gives them? My H says that his Dr is really delving into his childhood, and his Mom that committed suicide when my H was only 15. Also the start of his porn use and the job losses he went through. He thinks he is getting somewhere but admits that it is slow going. I don’t know what to think.
That is a very good question trish and one we are going to have to look at because many of us are saying it isn’t an addiction (including JoAnn) BUT when new members come here and want help… we tell them they must insist on their H getting a therapist who understands sexual addiction AND that their husband must attend 12 step. Hell…even sisters that don’t believe it is an addiction have their husband in 12 step programs and with a CSAT. For myself, I don’t believe in 12 step for these guys and I don’t believe Carnes theories so from that point of view…I guess Minwalla is a wash too. He does seem to be one of the few who really recognizes the supreme damage that is inflicted on women by these men. Beyond that IDK. maybe they should ALL be with sex therapists or shrinks. The lack of success certainly couldn’t fall any lower than it is now. I suppose that may well be because we are treating broken legs with cancer drugs……sigh
I agree Trish – my stbx seems to be getting more out of therapy with someone who doesn’t believe in sa. He seems calmer and thoughtful – but I now know he is keeping up with his deviant risky sex weirdness. From day one I felt he needs someone to cheat on – that’s where all his fun is. Now I think he is “cheating” on his therapist? Hopeless , he is probably getting a thrill by convincing her how good he is.
Karen I only know Minwella from my side of the mess, but I guess what is impressive with him is he doesn’t take any of their bullshit. Maybe he gets that from his work with prisoners
That was a very interesting article, but it does leave me confused about the whole mess. We’ve been working with it as an addiction, and the 12 step group my husband attends seems to have helped him. Or it did until he decided to be a special little boy again.
His therapist hasn’t really focused on the sex behavior aspect, but on how to deal with the core feelings behind his acting out – the powerlessness, rage, and so on he felt from being molested by his mother. Husband has not been very willing to work with that, it being too painful or whatever. But even the therapist said he wouldn’t give up his sex stupidity until he was willing to change himself and face the real issues. So I guess the therapist has a pretty decent clue. Too bad he can’t beat my husband with it hard enough.
I’d love to show this article to my husband, but I doubt that would be worth the effort.
Cheating on his therapist- I hadn’t thought of that one. That’s right, though. If they are faking recovery, they can cheat on their therapist, their sponsor, the group! They get even more people to cheat on! And they can laugh inside at the poor assholes who are really trying to be sober. They are the special one who can fool them all. That makes a lot of sense.
Minwalla is helpful because he gets their minds off their dicks for a couple of weeks.he puts up with NO bullshit. He also delves into the underlying issues and tells them in no uncertain terms that they cannot be a “normal” human being without help ( they cannot do it on their own). He keeps them on the straight and narrow on the sex part in order to clear their heads for the real stuff. I know that my H’s CSAT has discussed underlying issues and has even discussed whether or not sex should be classified as an addiction. The meetings that my H attends are dictated/run by the CSAT and his sponsor…..
The meetings and such are not about stopping someone from f’n hookers. It is to learn to express yourself in real terms like real people. The meetings are set up to keep you in practice of being “present”. Same reason they told my H to stop drinking at all. Feel the emotions, don’t medicate them.
That being said ( just my personal observations), Minwalla did the best work of getting H’s head out of his ass and owning up to his shit and trying to do better. I can now have a conversation with him that does not make me crazy.
Is it the answer to everything? NO
Did it help? YES
Should there be a change in the treatment for these guys? ABSOLUTELY
Is it actually a sex addiction? NO F’N WAYWhat I tried to convey in a convoluted manner was that I cannot tell any of you that my H has stopped all “acting out”. I THINK he has. I can tell you that he is a different person after Minwalla.
Perhaps, Minwalla isn’t totally convinced it is an addiction either. There must be a reason why he is examining them for PD’s. What you said is not convoluted. We are all confused but we are in good company. This is not an established diagnosis because the experts cannot agree either. I think things are changing or about to change. The success rate is so poor with the current treatment model we sure need some sort of a change. I don’t know if Minwalla can fix one of these guys or not. I do know that he has eased the pain of the women married to them and for that fact alone, I respect him.
What is this guy’s views on partners? Does he balk at us being traumatized and our PTSD? a la similar proponents of the ”myth” like Dr Ley.
Here is Marty Klein’s response to a woman who was approached for group sex by 2 strangers at a conference she was working at and he attended. He took major issue with the fact she felt offended by the incident:
“The whole “Eek! An unwanted sexual invitation—gross! My day/week/year is ruined!” is a bit precious. The whole idea that women need to be protected from discomfort, or from men, or from sex, is a giant step backwards. Obviously, sexual violence and coercion are horrible and unacceptable realities in contemporary society. But if we need special rules to comfort or protect anyone reminded of this reality, modern life will come to a screeching halt. And it will be women who will suffer most from this “protection.” 1970s feminism was completely clear on the dangers of such traditional “protections,” and labored continuously—and successfully—to undo most of them. The topic is particularly poignant when the people involved are progressive political activists. If we expect to go out and communicate effectively in a world that is often hostile to our ideas, we need to have the emotional skills to tolerate a wide range of responses. If we can’t even handle a friendly sexual invitation in a genuinely safe environment without losing our composure, how can we tolerate the rough-and-tumble of the world out there? Learning to say things like “that feels bad, please stop,” “I don’t like that you said that,” “You have obviously misread me completely,” and “I don’t think anyone would like what you just did” involves a fundamental skill that every grownup needs. This has NOTHING to do with the number of women who are sexually coerced, trafficked, raped, murdered, or otherwise maltreated around the globe. This is not about porn films, prostitution, clitoridectomies, or forced child-rearing. This is simply about the need for people to acquire and express a little bit of sexual intelligence. Congressmember Larry Craig, repulsive political creature that he is, did not deserve to suffer for (allegedly) inviting a stranger to have sex in the Minneapolis airport men’s room a few years back. Similarly, “John & Mary,” and every other polite person, deserves a simply reply when they issue an unwanted sexual (or non-sexual) invitation: “No thank you.”
I wonder how Marty would feel if I asked him to join me in group sex with 2 other guys? He should be flattered! How ever he would have to take it up the ass because there aren’t enough holes to go around!
gosh do you think he would be an intolerant jerk and find that offensive? Well he isn’t prepared for this world is he?
I think you are mixing Dr. Klein’s well known philosophy of personal sexual freedom and choice with what the abuse that Partners have been subjected to.
Sexual freedoms and personal choice really have nothing to do with how he does or doesn’t feel about the abuse that occurs in relationships like ours.
I have no idea what Dr. Klein’s thoughts are about Partners who are abused and traumatized by lies, deceit, exposure to STD’s, gaslighting, etc., but certainly the woman who was approached was not abused. Yes, it was tacky, but we don’t know the circumstances and, unless she was harassed or threatened all she had to do was refuse or walk away.
The whole point is that you cannot make rules that take away basic freedoms. I may be grossly offended by various types of tacky approaches; sexual, political, religious or others, but those people have the right to do and say whatever they want as long as they do not break the law by being harrassing or agressive. ~ JoAnn
I know Joann ~ I just really wonder how this guy would feel if someone asked him to have sex with another guy. If he is a not bisexual then I am guessing he might get freaked out too. Guys I know are pretty offended if you suggest they have sex with another guy. They might punch someone for such an offer. But they all think women should get it on in front of them.
I agree JoAnn. This is apples and oranges. What I take from what he said was act like a grown up and take care of yourself. Unwanted approach? Tell him he’s a scum sucking pig and walk away. Don’t look to the government or society to “protect” you from a trivial social encounter or you’re risking a return to the old days when women were perceived as weak and unable to function equally in the world. He clearly distinguishes this from “women who are sexually coerced, trafficked, raped, murdered, or otherwise maltreated.” I would argue that PTSD and potential health risks from involuntary exposure to sex trade workers falls in the later category.
I found his above quote spoke loud enough on it’s own to convey Klein’s inextricable arrogance towards women.
However, there are more specifics to the particular incident. It only gets worse, though, because he distorted and lied about the facts.
All the woman did was actually say “thank you”, felt offended and uncomfortable, and politely walked away. She was the keynote speaker, and informed conference organizers at the end. It violated their anti-harassment policy and they dealt with the sex-seeking duo appropriately.
The women then blogged about her feelings and experience on her personal blog – being propositioned at work for group sex and handed pornographic material – thanking the organizers for the way they handled it.
Then Klein, who was at the event, had a massive heart attack over it on Psychology Today, twisting to the world that she was childish, her feelings invalid, and that she was just an attention seeker. A therapist, of all people – attempting to instruct women how they should and shouldn’t feel.
There is no mix up. I never said she was an abuse victim. Nor is it apple and oranges. My point was and is, very simply – if he cannot stomach a woman naturally feeling offended and uncomfortable by perverts indecently propositioning her at work, it certainly makes me question how he’d treat and view partners.
There is also no indication that he views our SA’s behaviors as abuse, like Minwalla does. I think Minwalla would hold very different views here and would applaud the women for how she reacted, not attack and invalidate her.
The woman was Elyse Anders.
Please read:
Info on Klein’s PT Attack:
http://skepchick.org/2012/06/psychology-today-blogger-your-facts-are-irrelevant-woman/Details of the experience:
http://skepchick.org/2012/05/sex-and-the-keynote/*triggering if you view the porn business card
Conference’s anti-harassment policy that was in place:
http://skepticampohio.com/anti-harassment-policyDaisy, if she had even called them anything close to scum sucking pigs as you appropriately suggest, Klein would have not liked that and would have lambasted her even more harshly.
What is wrong with people?
Society has rules and boundaries. There’s a time and place if you are looking for a hookup- usually someplace involving alcohol. Soliciting people engaged in professional activities is usually considered a no-no unless they employed in the sex industry.
Marty Klein sounds a lot like my STBX when he is trying to justify his entitlement- his “sexual freedom and choice” over common decency and everyone else’s boundaries. The rest of us are just uptight prudes trying to ruin his good time. His condescension is nauseating- the whole “Eek…precious” bit in particular. The problem with people like that is they don’t learn if they get yelled at or called a scumbag; they blame the other person.
Why are so many of the men who write about sex addiction so weird?
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