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Whoa!!!!!
ZumbaGirl,
This is such a crock!!!!
I have been busy for the last week and weekend with showing my doggies!!!( we did not win, but it was fun).
I am trying to catch up and, I am just soooooooo triggered by your experience. Zumba, first of all, I am soooo sorry. Second of all, thankyou for taking the time to write about your experience with grace and depth of feeling.
There are so many things that I want to talk to you about. Dang there is just never enough time!!Zumba, IMO, you have every right to read his journals. You are in trauma with the discovery of his horrible secrets. You are trying to regain trust in him. If you were feeling like something was still off with his reactions over your grief, what else are you supposed to do? Please honor yourself and give yourself a break with this.
I am really freaked out and hope that other sisters will give feedback on this issue. What you found in his journal was eerily identical to things that my husband has said to me. I know that some of the sisters have talked about a robotic response by their SA and the canned phrases.
Specifically with your post it was these:
….His therapist told him there was nothing that he could do to help you get through this…..
….your low self esteem and high anxiety is making you undesirable…..
…. he can’t deal with your hopeful and angry moods…..
….your hope for happiness depends on his recovery…..
….he needs to establish boundaries….I remember asking my husband what his counselors were telling him about what your spouse is experiencing.
He would say something like he needs to concentrate all of his efforts on himself.
He would say that I have anger management issues and that he hopes I get help for that.
(((have I been angry to find out that he uses prostitutes? yes! Would that describe my character?No!} }}He would say that he just can’t communicate with me. {{{ I do not have communication problems with anyone else, but he does!}}}}
He says that my happiness depends on him and that no one is responsible for any other person happiness. {{{{ OK, but they sure can be responsible for another person’s sadness!!! }}}}}}}
Speaking of sadness, he says that I have problems with depression and that is my issue. He said that there is no way that his actions have caused me this kind of sadness and that he refuses to accept responsibility for that. {{{ Well, guess what? I have never cried like this in my life. I am not a person that cries easily. We have been married for 27 years, he knows that I do not cry easily }}}}
I am to tired to think of any other examples, but I know that there are many more. I just know that when he would say these things it made that inner voice tell me that something was really wrong.
Sending you hugs Zumgagirl. Be strong and feel supported by all of us. We are here for you.
Thank you for telling us about your experience Ellen. I could really relate to the gradual recovery of my own beautiful, flawed, rich, challenging life. I, too, had lost myself. But now I’m found.
ZG, I believe that if you hold your place in this world, stay still in it, feel the anxieties until you go underneath them, you will know what you need to do. I’m sending you lots of light for the day.
love,
D.Cindy thank you for bringing up his excuse that her anxiety and her low self esteem are unappealing. Because this is a classic, I am this way because of you. Basically this is all your fault, right. They are nowhere to blame and certainly are not the base of your happiness. Gag me. Remember love does not hurt. Love does not hurt. Someone who loves you should never treat you this way, nothing he has done OS out of love, its all about control . The more he OS succesful at beating you down, the more he feels he will somehow get to keep you.
But when all of us sit down, what part of.this addiction is love? When you read about addicts they love the addiction most. So does it make sense now that love does not gift. We should not be hurting like this. Sa should be happy to move and and be free from this hell. This addiction is purely selfish and self love, they are number one of course. Now from perspective its all too simple.
I’m that specific episode they also talk about abuse. And we have been abused. Therapist on the show said that in a waives get dumb. We try to go into our heads and rationalize why and how they did this to us. But thqt is the last place we should go. The face vale gut reaction, the first one is right. Hurts like help, but we gotta learn. Otherwise we will keep getting into these same situations. Hope this makes sense from my smart phone.
Do we feel loved, are we loved, does this feel like love. No it feels like control, and a cat and mouse game.
Love, floraI think it’s always a good thing to stop and ask, if we are staying with an SA that we really don’t want to stay with, what are we teaching the others in our home? Is this what you would want your daughter or son to choose?
Absolutely not, I would be devastated to know my children chose this type of warped relationship. But I feel I DIDN’T choose this at all. We’ve only been married a year, and he hid it all very successfully. So six weeks after I have discovered the truth, we supposedly have a full disclosure at the counselor’s on Tuesday. As far as I see it, now that the smoke has cleared (guess I’d better wait til Wed to say that, who knows) I am giving this a year barring escalated behavior or potential harm to my children. Either this stupidity is out in the open and we’ve healed significantly and are moving forward OR I’m degreed and employed (I am neither at this point), and he’s slipped up enough for me to KNOW he’s not going to change and I have enough proof to secure a divorce on my own terms, with child support and alimony to help me start a new future for my children and I. I am choosing to keep a roof over my children’s heads, and to try to maintain a sense of reality and an emotional distance safe for myself, though it may look to outsiders like I’m choosing this relationship over freedom to pursue something healthier. Of course it will be hell, but I can’t just bail and leave everyone bleeding and homeless. I actually think H can do it, if he wants to badly enough. I have no idea how badly he wants it at this point. It all looks like a blur to me now.
I needed to cut and paste and print some info my H already had pulled up on his computer last night so I just used his computer. I opened Word and in the last file opened in the recent files list was named my_journal.doc. Talk about a weird coincidence. I didn’t open it, but definitely thought of you and was seriously tempted. I am fairly certain he would have a password on it anyway. I guess I should give credit where credit is due… my H seems far too thorough to leave any evidance or means of me accessing anything incriminating. If there is no password on that file it’s because the entire thing is fake and written for my eyes.
Karen – I don’t know about the video taping being a crime or not but hiring the hooker is a crime! At least in this country.
I think I am more haunted by the things I unknowingly taught my children in our family life more than anything else.
I didn’t know until about 6 months ago that both sons knew about their father’s porn habit since first year high school. They are 21 and 24 now. Where was I? I didn’t know! And did they think I did?
The dynamics of keeping secrets is one of the worst ones for me, and I still struggle with my “felt need” not to tell. But I do try and model a new kind of “telling” with my sons, however, imperfectly. It’s just hard when secret keeping is epidemic in this whole area—the SA’s life, the treatment program, the disclosure limits, the preservation of income and benefits for the family, the exhaustion that accompanies telling and dealing with the fall out from friends and family, etc. etc.
I hate the secret. I hate how it affects our ability to choose what we really want and really deserve.
Diane it was the what am I teaching mychildren that finished me in our marriage. It is still confusing and hurting but when I focus on them – my children – I know I did the right thing. If he recovers for himself and his boys he will be doing well. Nothing he can do will ever take away the pain of what’s been done so all he can do for me is support us financially and care for my son. I don’t want anything else right now. Not from him, nor anyone. Just a sane life. And I guess only I can do that for me by letting God!
I had to tell my kids the truth when I filed for divorce. I didn’t realize, until I told them, what a burden that secret really was, how it isolated me and meant I was living contrary to my own values. Never again.
Oh, how I hate the secret as well. It is a terrible burden. A dark and lonely place. My family knows. I am glad for that. And I did tell his mother. That backfired. But at least I told.
You know, I was once rather close with his mother. But his lies have jacked that also. I told her. He denied. She of course believes son. Now mother is coming for Turkey day. I told H I would tolerate holidays with her. But I will never have a relationship with her like I once did. Until, some level of disclosure and my pain came from his lips to her. He is not even close to that type of place right now. So I secretly pretend he son is ok. because she won’t believe me anyway. how sad. how horribly sad.
also I fathom, what will I be telling my daughter one day? one day the secret will need to be out.
Also, Jos1972 I really like your outlook on starting new. 🙂
I watched “the truth will set you free” on Oprah’s life class today, it was really interesting. She talks of how secrets keep you from reaching your full potential, that you can never get anywhere when you are holding onto secrets. And how important it is to unload. Watch it if you get a chance, pretty interesting. She also said if you have secrets in your relationship it really isn’t a relationship on any level other than “pretend”. I think it is true, my h pretended to be a wonderful husband/dad/friend. so sad and scary.
I told my dad (84) recently about my h. This was the biggest hurdle for me, I didn’t want to hurt him. He is really upset. He is so mad at my h. He always treated my h with so much respect. They got along so well. My dad was the one person my h did not want to ever know. I wasn’t going to tell him, but I lost it in front of him.
You know what the first thing out of his mouth was? He has the most wonderful wife in the world – why would he ever do that?
I really expected him to say something about my h. it surprised me.when I told my mother in law guess what the first thing out of her mouth was: Who are these women that they would do those kinds of things. (from the master blame-er herself).
when I told my h that they both knew, he just shrugged.
Too weird, why was I hiding?z you need to tell someone. You have carried this burden alone for too long. It is eating away at you. Make it someone that knows both of you, and you feel that you can trust.
and do as flora says – watch his actions, not his words.Hugs
HeidiHi sisters!
A few days have gone by, and I just wanted to post where I’m at. Partly it’s been a busy few days and hard to get on the computer. I also wanted a few days to step back and get clarity. And then of course, I always hope when I post that I’m saying things clearly…so here goes:
First I want to thank you ALL so much for your posts. I have read and reread them all, just because there’s SO much there (as always): support, wise words of advice, comfort, validation…all of it! Sometimes the thought of posting a situation seems exhausting, but then I’m always glad I did. And I always know you’ll be honest and give tough love when needed! I love that!!
So anyways, as i read back my own post this morning, I still feel shame about reading the journal, which is ultimately someone’s private thoughts. I’m trying to get over that guilt, because ultimately, I think it allowed a light bulb to go off in my head. Ultimately, whether the recovery is happening or not, I realized all of a sudden that this relationship, as an intimate marriage, is over. In fact, I’m pretty sure now it never WAS in intimate marriage, in the true sense. Karen, your post has resonated with me: that I KNEW it the day I saw those videos. To say that I got hit by a bus is an understatement. I think what I’ve been grieving all along since d-day 2 is that fact that I really did KNOW at that point (d-day 1) there was no turning back. It was just too much and too sudden to absorb all at once, and I shoved it away, and looked toward healing our marriage–thinking it was a “both of us” problem. When d-day 2 came this past March, I really was ready and able to learn, learn, learn about SA. And I found MTASA and SOS. In addition to grappling with whether there would be true recovery, I’ve been struggling all these months with whether I could forgive what already happened. For I really loved this man. It’s so much to bear–this broken heart. And even I wanted to compartmentalize it, call it an addiction, and make it separate from him so that I could wrap my head around it. (I guess the SA’s aren’t the only ones that do that.) But ultimately, he is a person that made choices. I guess it’s so hard to grasp that these were concious choices. This is the person he is.
Can he recover and become a better, healthier person? Maybe. But I realized the other night that the door to my heart has already been shut. I also feel that my self-respect, and the example I set for my kids are too important. I already feel tremendous shame and guilt for not speaking up more about porn use years ago, and most importantly, for not kicking him out right after d-day 1. My therapist says not to do that to myself, but anyone with a conscience would feel that guilt and shame, I’m quite sure.
Here’s something interesting. The next day, after our blow up this weekend, when SA was being nicey-nice, he kissed me in a romantic way (first time since before d-day 2.) And you know what I felt? Nothing. No, not even nothing…I felt creeped out. And sad.
As far as what some of you said about a therapist, yes I need to get back to that. I stopped going to my therapist who said that PTSD symptoms sounded “a bit strong of a term” to her. I need to resume the hunt again.
And Heidi, I agree. It’s time to tell someone else.
Right now; I’m feeling a sense of peace and relief. (Maybe it’s the increased dosage in my antidepressant, though!). I’ve made a decision that I’m no longer being hopeful for this relationship, or worrying about his recovery. I almost don’t think HE even wants this relationship. Maybe that’s the hard part…I wanted HIM to want it enough. I know the sex addiction, blah blah blah, is separate from the relationship, but I think I’m one of those ladies, where, when I file for divorce, he’ll be just fine with it. 🙁 But I know that’s neither here nor there. I just want HIM to be heart broken, dammit!!!!!
Anyway, SA’s been so damn caring and nice ever since Saturday. And it’s SO hard, but I just keep telling myself every day it means NOTHING. I’m trying so hard just to trust myself and keep moving forward. But when push comes to shove, I simply don’t trust him. I guess that’s a freeing thought, in a way.
I hope some day I’ll be able to forgive him in a compassionate way. And who knows, maybe in the next month, he’ll make such a miraculous turnaround that I’ll forgive and trust again. Now on paper, how ludicrous does THAT sound? In any event, I’m just not cut out for years of this. Till death do us part? Yes, on June 17, 2009, a big part of me died.
So for now, my goal is to make some more money, make a plan and go from there. At least I’ve made peace with the fact that I don’t see this married relationship in my future.
I love you all, and on this Thanksgiving, I’m more grateful for you than ever.
XOXO JulieHi zg,
In regards to nicey nicey, you can tell him to leave you alone. You are welcome to your space. You do not need to partake in this. I did this. After dday number 2, I told my h not to touch me, kiss me or hug me, and def no sex. I had to put that in place, I wanted to be left alone. I did not want any affection from him, because it is just another tool in their box to use you and break you down in time. You will start to think he is being so kind and caring. But its not coming from the right place. If that is what the h needs to do to make it work, for them it is the same as words. Atleast for mine it was. The shower of affection and holding your hand means nothing. They are another empty form of promises and words. Love, floraDear Zumba,
so sorry for the sadness that goes with this, I certainly share that wound. Feel guilty for staying so long, feel guilty for deciding to leave, in the meanwhile Zumba, do they feel guilty about anything? I mean that always gives me some perspective on whether I am being selfish or not in my decisions so far.
We need to let ourselves off the hook. Ok, we trusted, we accepted things once should not accept at times perhaps-we asked that our marriages be healed and they do the work. so many other wives would have been done at get go…but we tarried on. it says a lot about us. Leave your marriage with your head held high. As a great wife, mother and lover. Look at your actions in the marriage– not words– . Everytime I do that, I feel really good about myself. IT can’t argued or diminished away. I feel over all, I delivered and played by the rules. and then some. I am sure you did too. SA’s just LOVE women like that. all the more fun to fck with.
I know it is easier said then done– I get moments of great courage, then cave. but if you can stick to your guns..and believe for a better life without him..you will do it.OH ZG, it sounds like you’ve done a lot of work on this. Hard work. Well done.
I remember when I realized that I could forgive my SA and start again. But then I learned that it would not really be any different. So I was just giving permission for a new horrible story to be written starring me as the loser, again. Forgiving my SA wasnt that hard. Accepting his limited capacity for an adult relationship of mutual love and respect was very hard.
Hi Zumbagirl,
Thank you for your deep felt update. I feel such a connection with you in our experience. Would love to chat more. I know you have done so much work on trying to wrap your mind around all of this. I am proud of how far you have come. I am thinking of you and send hugs your way.
Stay strong.
{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}
dear Julie,
I am deeply moved by your post and your courage. You have come such a log way and you are always the lady in my eyes. I don’t think ANYONE who loved you could do those things to you Z girl. Try to console yourself…even if he couldn’t love you…the truth is he cannot love anyone?? It will NOT be different with another woman but it certainly may be different for you with another man? ( not that there is any rush) He is selfish and arrogant to the core. I think it is wonderful that u no longer find yourself responding to him romantically? I also agree that I would request that he be civil and polite BUT to shelve the romance. He is only messing with your head and you can do with out it. I am very proud of your progress. Expect him to try to come close as he feels you withdraw. Pay no mind. It will simply be him trying to play push and pull and that gets so tiring.
Karen xxHello Ladies,
The bitch Silver Lining is back!! (thank you, Lexie)! I have pride in my reputation.
However, I have no pride but shame in the fact that I have been so out of touch for the longest time and I have let down my bestest bud by not being there when she needs me the most! 🙁 So this will start with a public apology to Z girl, my Jules, my soul sister!! I am so sorry that I didn’t drop everything as I should have- and reached out to you for support. As you know, I have been wrapped up in my own world for weeks (months) now and not taking the time for my dear friends and sisters whom I love SO MUCH and there are no excuses – just selfishness on my part and I am so very sorry! I hope that you will forgive me and allow me another chance to make it up to you and REALLY be there for you this time. This post and thread is so devastating on one hand yet so filled with love and support on the other and I commend all the sisters for their time, love, support, and advice to help you navigate these unfamiliar waters.
That being said, let’s move on. This is not about me and I didn’t mean to make it that way…I just had to ask forgiveness.
I can not STAND your stupid SA. I couldn’t stand him before but now- I loathe him more than Lexie loathes all of our SA’s put together! Your entire post has been dissected and analyzed (very thoroughly, I might add) do I won’t rehash it again. I will say this: your SA has pulled out every fucking stop there is. All of them. Blame shifting, gas lighting BIG TIME, denying, lying, believing his own lies, and now trying to schmooze?? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? Fuck him!! I mean it- PLEASE, I BEG you- don’t believe another word he says!! Listen to Flo, Lex, Diane, And especially Karen!! He nice is fake. He already showed you himself!! You KNOW who he is! Don’t wait around for him to change! For him to switch it like a light bulb! For things to get better! They wont. They can’t. He doesn’t have it in him. He is a very sick man! You are NOT! You are fine!! No more gas lighting, please!!
You are strong! You CAN do this! You are doing the right thing! For yourself, your kids, and yes, even that Prick SA. If he has ANY hope whatsoever to lead a healthier lifestyle, he must first hit rock bottom. Give him his life back Jules!! And in the process, for God’s sake, reclaim YOURS!!!
I ask you again, what can I do to help? Anything! I will fly out, reasearch attorneys with you, research therapists until you find someone who has a fucking clue. I bet my therapist would work with you over the phone! She’s awesome and she cares and she GETS IT!!! I will walk you through this whole divorce process! I understand wanting to get yourself in better financial shape- but believe me- He will have to help you for a LONG time financially, because of the kids! Don’t wait till the perfect time to pull the trigger- because the perfect time will never get here!!
I am soooo sorry for your pain and suffering- again at the hands and heartlessness of another idiotic SA. It just makes me sick. For all of us. Let him figure out his own miserable world- you work on YOU!! Listen to these ladies!! Most have never even met you in person- yet they know what a jewel you are!!! It’s so simple for all of us to see!! Look in that dang mirror and see who WE see!! If you can do that, you will run far, far away and never look back!!! And…..be so happy you took the next step!!!
Sending you every bit of love, hope, and understanding that I have within me!! Let’s MAKE time to talk this weekend! I know you have company…. But perhaps we can talk late night or something!!! I love you girl!! You are the sister I never had! You have ALWAYS been here for ME!! Please, let me return the favor!!!
Hang in there, SS!!! Help is on the way!! XO!!Hi Julie,
I just wanted to say that I think you have grown so much since you first started posting. You are sticking up for yourself and what you believe. You are seeing your life with clarity and truth. That is not easy to do, takes courage and honesty. Growing often is painful however necessary and in the long run no one regrets it.Much Love, Nap
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