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In order to make progress in my own healing and live the life that I want to live, I have had to be brutally honest with myself about what my role in this life we lived was….and part of that involved looking at myself as regards the issue of codependency. At first ( and this lasted for a long time), I was adamant that I was not co anything and my anger and shock and grief and pain allowed me to not delve too deeply into that whole area of codependency. Sex addiction was his issue and I had nothing to do with it.I had read the Carnes stuff and the Codependent No More books early in the process and they just made me angrier and more sure that I couldn’t see myself in what was written on those pages.
And here is the truth. Sex addiction and intimacy anorexia are his problems and I didn’t have anything to do with them. BUT….after time passed and I started healing and the anger and grief and sadness and shock subsided….I started doing more reading and learning about codependency, reading other sources besides Carnes and Melody Beattie….and I found that there were lots of codependent characteristics I didn’t have…but I came to own the ones that I did have. All codependents are not the same. For example, I didn’t lie or make excuses for him. I didn’t expect him to be responsible for my feelings. I didn’t deny or minimize the distance that was becoming more noticeable in the relationship. I didn’t check on him. I didn’t mother him. I didn’t let his day to day moods affect me. I didn’t perseverate about him and what he was doing or thinking all day long, etc.
But these are my two big areas of codependency:
1) I DID take on more and more responsibility in the relationship and the family, parenting, and around the house and ended up prior to d-day with vastly more than my share. I talked to him about it a lot and then it became not worth my time to talk about it anymore. It was easier to just do it. I resented him for it and I did it anyway.
2) I DID accept less than what I needed in terms of intimacy, partnership, empathy…. for a really long time.Those are two very classic behaviors associated with codepencency and I did them. I believe that I came into the marriage with those inclinations/tendencies and that they became full blown and very apparent in my relationship with him.
On d-day #1….I told him that I would do my share and no more and that I would no longer accept less than i needed. Long before I knew or accepted that those were codependent traits…..long before I acknowledged that I was codependent because I owned those. And I have worked really hard on those things and been really consistent and I wouldn’t be where I am in my own healing without acknowledging, accepting, and working on these traits.
the really great thing is that I actually had/have control over my own behavior, and as I got healthier and raised the bar…..so did he. That wasn’t inevitable, but I really believe that he would not have chosen recovery if I had continued my previous behavior and /or let him continue to treat me the same way without significant consequences.
If we don’t change our part of the dance, the part we developed as a coping mechanism to the craziness that came into our lives when we didn’t know what the issues were…..they don’t have any reason to change theirs.Has anyone else taken an honest look at themselves in terms of codependency? Care to share?
MarieYes, I have taken a look at myself and know that I have been a caretaker and have codependent behaviors. Like you, I see some in myself but not all. I did check on him and mother him. I did take on more and more of the responsibilities, mostly to keep things going for our kids. Consequently, there was less and less time for me to focus on myself. When I finally set boundaries and stuck to them, I had the opposite experience as you, Marie. I did take my children out of our house for a night to protect them from the trauma that the turmoil was inflicting on them. He attempted suicide, or had an emotional storm during which he considered it. I’m not sure which it was, though he led me to believe he attempted. Then, while he was out of the house, he continued to push boudaries and access pornography. So me changing my behavior did not help him change his. However, he has mental health issues as well, so the comparision may not be possible.
Anyway, I hate the term “codependent”. I prefer “caretaker” and behavioral descriptions like “setting boundaries” (or not setting them . . .)
I am still trying to NOT take care of him, by the way. And I am trying to disengage from him. It’s hard to accept that he is not the person I thought he was. Or was. Not sure which it is.
Hi Marie and All,
The term co-dependency is the same as co-addict which is an addiction. So when you accept this title you are also accepting the fact that you are an addict, and addicted to doing your two big areas of what is termed co-dependency or co-addictions. This would be similar on the statement that the intimacy anorexic is addicted to no intimacy.However I do not feel it is an addiction. I do not feel because you have those two traits, as i have the same two, that we are an addict and need to attend 12 step. Did i sometimes accpet less for myself than i deserved? Did i sometimes overcompensate while he was growing his massage thrapy business? Yes. But does this make me a co-addict or does this make me just a plain caring person or caretaker? Or is it their personality. If everyone was as self absorbed as our h’s there would be no homeless shelters, nurses, therapists, teachers….because in fact this is our personality type. We are caring people and the givers.
I do realize that i did more than my fair share, and i do realize that by not following my heart i got myself into this mess. I have accepted my part in the equation. However much like Sunny it did not have the same effect as with your h. And i think that is the moral of the story….this does not work for everyone. When they say in these books that when you establish boundaries and get back to yourself and extinguish your co-addict behavior…you will grow to a stronger better relastionhip…. but what some people don’w ant to see or realize is that i think many times the correct and healthy pass does not lead together with your h. The stronger and healthy path just may be that you walk alone. As in the book the princess who beleived in fairy tales.
In addition my research on co-depdency also includes reading up on several other book on other addictions and well as books by alanon and alateen. In my research I have found that any person who grew up in a family with divorce, death of a parent, death of a sibbling, if the parents are addicts, mentally ill, depressed, if the child had to take on a more parental role at a young age with responsibility, any child who grew up in a household which was less than perfect….is a bredding ground for co-dependency. By the standards above 50% of marriages end in dirorce, 60% of second marriages end in divorce…then throw in the stats of the number of mentally ill people (25% of the population is a sociopath) i am sure the number of depressed people is high (i have been in the past), then you throw in the addicts….at this point how much of the population is perfectly healthy …10% maybe??
I think we do need to acknowledge how we got into this mess, what we did to contribute and what traits we may have. Because only when we do this can we begin to feel better and hopefully not make the same mistake twice. But when something is running so rampant…..that so many people are afflicted….is it an addiction?? or the better term caretaker.
I have also read that people will recreate their past. In doing so in your marriage you may create your parents marriage or any dysfunction in your past. This is co-addiction as well. But are we really seeking this out, or are we just repeating our past because we at that time did not know any better? I think its because we did not know any better, not that we are addicted.
So when this event comes about in your life you do need to address whatever your issues maybe. You need to search yourself and figure out your puzzle. But i think our blame in this goes only as far as the postition we have put ourselves in. Only at that point can we then change our lives.
And i don’t think saying we are co-addicts and attending 12 step is part of it.
Two books i have read which i thought were helpfull is Women who love too much….and the enabler.
Love,
FloraHi Flora and Sunny,
Thanks for the responses, love the insights. I disagree with the definition of codependency being the same as a coaddict, although I know that Carnes certainly sees them as the same. I have done a lot of reading and I choose to see a coaddict as a woman who goes to the strip clubs with her husband or engages in threesomes at his request, etc….even though she doesn’t want to. Or a woman who is addicted to her husband…..thinking about him and what he might be needing or thinking about all the time, at the expense of her own life and family and job. I know Carnes, et al would disagree….but there is other literature that distinguishes the two and I choose to go with those definitions.
When we identify and work on our own codependent traits, or whatever we want to call them ( I don’t like the word, either…..but the reality is that the behavior I needed to work on is what everyone else calls codependent behavior) that we either came into the relationship with or that we developed as a result of living with them, we become healthier and focus on our own lives and the vast majority of the time, the SA in our lives will still choose NOT get healthier and get into recovery. I really do understand that nothing we do affects or causes recovery in our SA’s. It’s their life, their choice. But I haven’t seen any SA’s choose recovery if their partner didn’t actively work at stopping the behavior she developed to cope with his sickness, long before she knew he was sick. I in no way mean to imply that if we do (x), our SA husbands will do (y). There aren’t any formulas for this.
I look at it this way….the healthier I am, the more I know crazy when I see it:)
thanks for your insights, love it:)
MarieTotally agree. I hope next time even with friends and bosses i will now be able to see the crazy.
What books did you read the distinguished between the two in that way? Just curious which ones they were, as i would like to pick them up. I have read alot of them. And i think there is a grey area here. Having lived this we know that what they are terming as co-dependent (or co-addict) is not an addiction but rather a series of bad choices, that we knew perfectly well we were doing, for what we felt was the better good of our marriage and being a faithfull, strong and supportive wife. But what in fact we were doing is adding to the crazy, by giving more than we should and not making them accountable for their actions when maybe we should have. But for me, i did not want to be mommy, and if he can’t do it on his own. Then so be it. but there comes a time that we have to realize, we need to accept the person for what is, and not what we thought they were or what they had potential to be. And if that is not acceptable to us then we have to walk away. We can;t make anyone do anything or be anything.
When i first called my local COSLAA group, the lady returned my call. We spoke briefly she said that it was not a large group but that she would be there on a weekly basis. She then ended our conversation with…i am glad you called us…some people never seek help for the co-dependency which is an addiction as well. (Needless to say i never went).
Also claudia Black says the same thing in her book, that co-depency and co-addiction are one in the same. That you are in fact sicker than the addict. This is coming from a women, however i did not read the book, so i do not even know if she lived the life of what it is like to be with an addict.
But there are differnt views out there. And i think the ones that resonate and make sense to us are the ones we need. You found what you needed, i found what i needed. And hopefully everyone will win the game of life.
Hi sisters,
I also have many books on codependency. I have been delving into these types of books for years, prior to my h’s disclosure and after. Until his disclosure, I could not totally make sense of everything in my life. Now the picture is more complete. (I also love the books by Harriet ???…Dance of Intimacy, the Mother Dance…she basically helps you own the problem.)
My quesion is, when your h won’t do his fair share of housework, for example, and you keep telling him about the problem, then what are your options? I mean I know I can leave his clothes laying around the bedroom, or throw them in the closet…but I can’t make him do anything. I can tell him my problem, but he can turn a deaf ear. Perhaps this codependent quality is really being a poor problem solver. I talked to my h about our issues, had him go to marriage counseling, retreats, seminars, you name it. I tried many different things, but if nothing works, even when trying different options, maybe someone is just burned out, not codependent. Or maybe that person accepts those negative h qualities and tries to look at the positive (like my mother).
In many ways my h is not doing recovery in a way that is satisfying to both of us, (he is more satisfied; I am not) so what do I do? I have tried many options, but I come back to the thought that it has to be a heart change…no matter of boundaries or whatever can make his heart change.
Could burn out, lack of problem solving, exhausted options really be what that codependent trait is? Maybe you could provide some thoughts on this issue.
By the way, the house issue is not really a problem for me right now; I don’t do his laundry anymore. He works more than me outside of the house, so it is pretty good now. Other issues are more the problem.
Thanks, B. Trayed
Hi B. trayed,
I was in the same position prior to d-day and I tried everything, too. What I didn’t do was get to a point where there were any consequences to his choices not to do his share or meet my needs. After d-day, I changed my attitude and behavior and knew that I would not stay in a relationship with him if those things did not change. And it wasn’t a threat, I truly meant it….and he knew that. Many SA’s wouldn’t change their behavior, mine did. Either way…my life was going to be better:)
Love,
MarieHi B-trayed,
Codepndency or not addiction or not…the following holds true.
When something does not feel right, feels off, we are most likely being taken advantage of, a boundary of ours is being broken. Wether we realize it or not is another question.
Also what some of these guys lack is respect and any sense for anyone esles boundaries…similar to how we may lack boundaries…the offenders don’t see anyone else with boundaries and they will continue to take and take…until you keel over and die. there will never be a day when he wakes up and says …hey i should realy help out more around the house…its just not in the.So i know you used the cleaning up around the house example. and did state that it is not a problem right now, but use it as an example. When you ask your h honey could you please clean-up bedroom. If he does not do this despite repeated reminders,,,he has a general lack of respect for you. Myguess is in this instance it is more than just cleaning, but is also in other areas. He is not treating you as an equal with thoughts and feeling, and as an equal in the relationship.
then what happens is we harp and we nag…we then become mommy and they resent us…and still don’t do it. this is passive aggressive behavior and also disrespect. So in many cases they do soemthing like this to hold over you so you never ever get what you want. I waited a year for my h to clean his side of the bedroom, it was a pig sty. Finally I one day i boxed it all up and threw it down the stairs into the basement. He was infuriated..because I took away what he was trying to hold over me.
Unf. i do not know how you are supposed to deal with these guys. They either do it or they don;t, they either respect you or they don’t. Some of these issues such as passive aggressive are very hard to cure and are engrained. You carry on with your life, quit the nagging and build it without them. I took away everything the SA held over my head. and part of that involved kicking him out, as he was taking advantage of me financially as well.
I was thinking, B. trayed, when you said the house cleaning wasn’t an issue right now, there were so many more important issues to deal with….that kind of sums it all up. We women all want to be in a relationship where we CAN argue about leaving shoes out that get tripped over or not putting down the toilet seat. When we live in a situation where the big issues (for example… respect, love, commitment) never get resolved and we don’t have the luxury of “normal” married disagreements…we aren’t living a life we want. I remember a marriage therapist talked about working things out three years ago when we saw her and compromise and so forth, and she used the example of how she leaves light switches on and it drives her husband crazy. I was absolutely incredulous that she thought there could be any comparison to what I was dealing with and told her that I would love to be able to even think that something as trivial as leaving lights on or off was an issue because it would mean that I actually had a marriage or relationship.
Love,
MarieI really like this forum and thanks Marie for starting it. I would just like to add to what B.T. and Flora just stated. We have a choice to accept this behavior from them or not. I agree, when they do not do their share of the work and do all these passive aggressive behaviors, and disregard our feelings, it is disrespect…..As we become more and more aware of this total disregard towards us, if we want to stay in the relationship boundries have to be set for yourself, as Marie did with her husband. If they continue to violate us, disregard our boundries after clearly stated, then its time to realize (as Marie stated for herself) the relationship is over. I know from my own experience, this is a big pill to swallow, however we have to be true to ourselves….otherwise we get what we tolerate.
love, napWow great informative forum. Like Marie, i feel my caretaking or Codie-if you see it that way, mistakes were very similar to hers 1 and 2. The overtaking of responsibilities in general because of the addict’s lack of respect and general selfishness. Plus not getting my needs met and managed on a regular basis. I compromised too far, too often. Before D day. For me this is my part of the dance I need to change. It is difficult.
I think there is a dance I did with SA long before I knew. I accepted a lot of unacceptable behavior, resented him for not changing it-often felt “conned” into things. Went to marriage therapy, almost from get go to try to resolve, went to a pastor, anger mgmt- all of it. So it’s not like I was going along blind I was trying to improve our marriage – figure out what the hell was wrong. But how do you get somewhere when you are not really getting the truth? Years of marriage therapy and no talk about his addiction,or endeavers . Gee, maybe that’s why I am MAD!!!!! Funny thing is, if he never confessed, I think I would actually be divorced by now because of all the misery and things just not adding up.I do find as I work on me, and see my role, where I made unhealthy compromises that were not good for me– I get better, stonger. It seems to have a positive effect on him as well, but not always. Sometimes a return to my values means a loss of power for the addict, and they lash out. Get passive aggressive, all just win their whatever they want. Oh, well, sucks to be you is what I think of him. Looking back I see I was overly eager and ambitious to please, I waited to get married and really really wanted it to work out. Denying my own needs for sake of marriage happened too often. Never, ever again. I can tell you that.
Just one last comment on the codependency thing– how many wives NOT married to addicts end up doing more of the houshold work and taking on more than they should? everyone I know. This is perhaps a learned female behavior, –not a healthy one, but a learned one. It seems so preveleant. Has nothing to do with addiciton. nothing.
Thanks Marie, Flora and all the sisters,
When you take care of yourself and keep your boundaries or consequences, which I do in many more situations since D-Day, does it matter if they call you controlling? Does it matter if their attitude or words say, “You are ruining my life.”? My h just said that to me. (Which I know this PTSD is a nightmare, but he isn’t interested in helping me out too much, so it will take longer to heal.)
After D-Day, when I asked my h to have an accountability partner that I trusted, not necessarily who he wanted, he called me a control freak. When I wanted him to read and complete a recovery journal for SAs, he told me I was a list person, like I had OCD or something, and he would not do it because he did not have that kind of personality. When I have asked him to go to therapy, he said I controlling also.
Most people, especially people in Christian ministry, would EXPECT an accountability partner and counseling, as the minimum place to start I would think. He thinks it is all control.
I was thinking, “Am I a controlling person?” I thought back to my younger years of playing at my friend’s house. If someone wanted me to run home and fetch something, I would gladly do it. (I loved to run and I did not mind.) When we were going to play a game, I did not really care which game we played. I was pretty laid back. I feel balanced as an adult. I have feelings and preferences, but I don’t think my children or others would call me OCD or controlling. If anything, I am not confrontational enough, though I have worked on that. To have him talk to another nice guy one time a week to encourage his recovery, after 20 years of betrayal and compulsive masterbation all around town doesn’t seem ridiculous to me? That does not seem controlling to me either. I think he plays the control card, but I just don’t agree. What do you ladies think about this name-calling…
B. Trayed (the control freak…AKA…OCD)well, they are so clever at projection arn’t they? If any one is the control freak, ocd psycho – it is the addict. Once boundaries are in place and they cannot have that secret hidden place of pleasure – which is ALL about control, (lies and deception are control as well) they freak out, projectile vomit on us with labels of — demanding, controlling, etc. I believe they do this because it is the addiction talking. Our boundaries – force it to lose steam. they resist, protest and project their fear and powerlessness on us. don’t back off– your requests are more than reasonable. It should force him to give up control- he’s had way more than enough already. that’s my 2 cents.
Hi B. Trayed,
I think what your h is doing is projection and blame shifting. These are two of many defense mechanisms they use so they don’t have to look at themselves. My h would do and say the exact same things. He also called me controlling.Its interesting that you are questioning yourself. You know who you are B.T. You know you are not these things. You are just trying to enforce your boundries and he doesnt like it, so he says all these absurb things to you for deflection off him.
Dont accept this behavior B.T. You sound like a wonderful person and loving wife. If your husband is using defenses, he’s likely not in recovery. He is not respecting your needs. You deserve love and respect.
Love, nap xx
Hi all,
The addict wants you to beleive that it is you. Its all in plan. Jsut as NAP said.
Many put counseling and 12 step as a boundary for remaining in the home or married, etc. You can say..i will not accept you attending less than one therapy session a week and one 12 step meeting a week. Mnay of us have done that. It stinks when you are with someone who does not want to get better or attend 12 step or therapy. That is what my h did for the first few months, insisted he had this under contrao, that just stopping was enough, and he was going to therapy once a week. However it was all a lie, his heart has never been in recover and he has never been very remorseful and has never saught treatment on his own.Hi Flora,
Mine was just like yours, never really wanted recovery, never went away as his therapist advised (for 2 months), and eventually he was skipping meetings for sex. He even threw me away like Tuesdays trash, just so he could keep his addiction.
napxxHi B.T. ,
My husband did all of those things, too, when I first started having and enforcing boundaries and it was infuriating! I learned not to argue or defend or respond to those comments in a way that he could use and dig deeper. I would say that my boundaries exist for me and for my sense of safety, they did NOT exist to control him and if he chose not to respect them, he was free to live elsewhere and not be in a relationship with me and do or not do whatever he wanted.
What you are asking your husband to do is get into recovery and be consistent in order to have a relationship with you….is that control? NO Is it OCD? NO
It is you telling him what you want your life to look like
( boundaries), or the result will be (______) if he chooses not to respect your boundaries. I don’t think you have ever mentioned what the consequences would be? Boundaries without consequences that are enforced aren’t really boundaries….they are empty threats….and our SA’s are really good at telling the difference.
A good rule of thumb that I found helpful in dealing with an SA is that if I found myself explaining or defending my boundaries…..I had already lost the argument.
Love,
MarieHi Marie and all,
Just like with a toddler. I was having issues with ours, she liked to argue up a storm. So i spoke with the teacher. She said a one word answer is enough, the more words you speak the more you give them to argue about and with.
You may want to use this method on your SA b-trayed. Just point to the boundary agreement.
I actually made a contract with mine. And it was signed and dated. Everything was spelled out, so it was there in B&W white what i expected and what his consequence was. There were no gray areas. I know mine, he would try to wiggle and weasel out.Exactly as Marie said. The boundaries are not control. They are what we expect to happen if we are to stay in a relationship with them. It is an agreement. He can stay and abide by the agreement, or he can always leave.
FloraYou sisters are awesome. I so looked forward to checking to see if you responded. I appreciate all of you.
Thanks! B. TrayedFlora..how funny that you brought up the toddler analogy. This is exactly how I describe having a conversation with my SA. It’s as if he has the mind of a 2 year old, and therefore cannot be reasoned with.
Flora,
I really like the short answer point you made. It does limit arguing. I just had the thought though your daughter may have the right stuff to become a good lawyer. Not everyone can argue well and sometimes its an asset. On the few occasions I have had to talk to my XSAH, I do find myself saying a lot less and keeping it short so I don’t give him any rope to pull me into his manipulations. For me, that usually is hard because I’m a talker. I have no desire to talk to him unless its absolutely necessary. Sad but true.
NapxxooWe are not necessarily control freaks. I am a ‘someone’s gotta be in control’ freak. My h would abdicate his responsibilities and it was shocking to me because he is older and I was 24 when we married. I dragged him to counseling etc., but he was so loving and a great dad, and … It wasn’t until our kids were independent that I forced the issue and got a shocking disclosure. I was not addicted to the drama triangle. I had priorities and destroying my family because my h didn’t measure up in those areas wasn’t an option when the kids were young. I don’t regret that and was not co-dependent. It was just timing. Great thread and really appreciated all of your insights. Love to all, Lylo
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