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Nobody would ever tell you ‘i told you so’ Daisy. We’d have to tell it to our own selves first, if that were the case, because these farking SAs don’t come with an instruction booklet and it puts us in the weirdest world we’ve ever been in. So something might feel marginally right one moment, and completely doinked the next. Lately the only thing that feels right to me is turning into a complete simpleton. I think it was Teri who said a while ago, ‘Focus on things like the color of the walls.’ And I seem to be doing things like that a lot lately. Beats the hell out of the ‘other’ images in my head. barf. xoxo
Oh sweet daisy…no one would ever tell you “I told you so..” here.
Get your disclosure. Then take your time and process it.We will be here for you no matter how it goes. Please do get rid of your son or you go elsewhere. Tell him to stay with a friend for a couple of nights maybe…
I do not know which is worse, the I’m in love SA or the emotionally dead SA. I guess it really does not matter.
I know you wouldn’t dear sisters! That was meant very tongue in cheek. I will however be “I told you so-ing” myself if it all goes bad.
Catherine, I missed your post – that darn cross posting thing! I’m going to go back and look at my questions and then I’ll let you know.
Catherine, here is my list of questions for the disclosure:
When did your relationship with Barbara start?
You said there was someone before Barbara. When did it start? Where did you meet her? How long did it last?
Have you ever been interested in and/or involved with someone I know?
Have you ever been interested in and/or involved with someone you work with?
Have you been involved romantically and/or sexually with any other women other than Unknown, Barbara and Kim during our relationship?
When did you start going to strip clubs?
How often did you go to strip clubs?
How much money have you spent on these women and clubs? I would like an acknowledgment of the financial impact this has had on our family.
What gifts or presents have you purchased for anyone other than a family member?
Have you ever used or been with prostitutes, escorts, women from dating services, etc.?
Have you had one night stands? If so, how many and when (approx. month & year) did you start having them?
Has anyone other than Barbara and Kim traveled with you on business trips? If so, who, when and where?
Were you visiting strip clubs and/or seeing someone in Columbus while you were still working for XXX and going to Pennsylvania?
Do you have memberships to any online dating services or similar sites for meeting women?
Do you have any email accounts other than your work account and your AOL account?
Do you have any credit cards that are in your name alone or at least that don’t have my name on them?
Do you have any bank accounts other than our joint accounts and your savings account?
When did you start gambling? How often have you gambled? How much money have you spent on gambling?
Do you have any other cell phones (prepaid, disposable or otherwise) other than your company phone and your Verizon phone?
Did anyone else know that you were engaging in these activities (people from work, etc.) or participate with you?
When was the last time you went to a club and/or had sexual contact with someone else and/or used porn?
Have you had any contact (phone, email, in person, etc.) with Kim or anyone else that I would view as inappropriate since we separated?
Is there anything else that I should know that I have not specifically asked about?
Good questions Daisy. I have also asked the question about who knew. Why is it important for you to know this Daisy?
Catherine, when my H left his previous job they had a going away party for him at a bar they always used to go to and I was not invited even though some of the other men brought their wives. So that made me wonder if his “girlfriend” (Kim) ever showed up there for those after work happy hours. I think Kim was a stripper (or a hooker or both?) at a club near where my H worked so I also wondered if other men from his work went there as well.
Basically just morbid curiosity. You know, the kind that killed the cat.
Daisy, it all just hurts. I can’t even think of what to say except you don’t deserve to have gone through any of that.
Yes it is morbid curiosity. Further pain if we know that others are complicit in the deception.
Grrrr honestly I’m so mad today with the insanity of it all. Daisy you know my husband had a 3 week relationship with a hooker. The only ‘affair’ my husband had though his therapist said it was not an affair but just more of the same hooker stuff. Daisy he was so insane during that 3 week period I knew something was wrong. He just was not with me/us. I remember the day I found out I had said to him ‘we aren’t even friends anymore’ and he just looked at me with crazy eyes. I never would have guessed that it was another woman. I found out because I borrowed his phone to call my daughter when I had no service and I could see this name called over and over. It was one of the team members in the rugby team he coached but the rugby season was well over so there would be no reason for contact. I called the number and she answered. My world as I knew it ended at that point.
We have parallels in our lives Daisy. He lied to me about where he was on 4 occasions so he could go and spend time with this filth. This hurts way more than the times he went to brothels because he actually had a relationship with her. He couldn’t get enough of her. The phone records for that 3 weeks show phone call after phone call. $700 worth in a month, the only time he has ever gone over his plan. I don’t care what the therapist call it because in my book it is an affair and the only reason it ended was because I found out about it.
I’m pretty sure that the Manager of one of his businesses must have known about it because my husband was so crazy, always on the phone and left work to spend time with her.
Bad rambling. Looks like I’m going to have a bad day today.I’m so sorry Catherine. That is painful indeed. What a horrible mess they’ve made of all our lives. Some days I count it as a miracle that I got out of bed.
And thanks Teri!
catherine, daisy, i’m so so sorry. how stupid could two men be? you are both amazing women. i just can’t believe how cruel and selfish this asswipes are. i just hate them for hurting you.
Daisy, in disclosure can you ask other questions? In my experience they never answer exactly. So if your question is worded just a little off then he could just say no. Ie…. When did you have sex? Not at all, but she had sex with me just last week. They warp their mind to comprehend their actions
That’s what the polygraph is for. The experts that deal with SA know how to word the poly.
people learned from Bill Clinton 🙂
Eliza, I don’t think I can ask further questions during the disclosure but I think I can ask follow up questions if I’m not satisfied with his answers or if the answers need clarification. I’m not concerned about it. I’ve handled plenty of slippery types in depositions. I know what to listen for. There are a few questions in there (like the credit card one) that I already know the answer to. I know he had a “green dot” refillable card. However, he doesn’t know that I know that. So those questions will be my baseline for whether he is telling me the truth. Plus I’ll have the poly. My H may be an asshole but he’s not a sociopath. I don’t think he can fool the poly.
How can these guys have relationships with hookers? How sick is that? Hello, they are screwing you because you are paying them, not because they LIKE you. What idiots. Where’s my pay for all the crappy sex I put up with for 23 years?
There’s a thought Teri. When my H tells me how often he was screwing strippers or hookers or whatever they were, and how much he paid per week, I’ll calculate what he owes me for all those years of mediocre sex.
Coming straight from my addicts mouth the reason that the disclosure takes so long is that it is meant to baseline out the individual to a point in time where they can move forward and “leave” all the crap they’ve done before in the past. Since most men forget the disgusting things they’ve done in the past it takes the therapist a while to get them to remember – and then admit to – and then feel sorry for – everything they’ve done. They have to own up to how badly they’ve screwed up. It also puts all of their transgressions in one place to prove to them just how out of control their addiction is and that they need help. He’s done at least 3 of them in his lifetime to family and the court.
So the disclosure isn’t really meant for us it’s for them… even though we’re demanding it. Weirdly enough though the victims (in my convict husbands case) or us (i would never call us victims) can benefit too. It sucks to have to wait when we want answers “now” to make decisions moving forward but disclosures are nasty awful things that aren’t pleasant for anyone. Really it’s best to give it some time and get some distance from the situation beforehand.
I say this because my addict has supposedly put together a disclosure for the last 10 years I’ve known him that he is planning to read to me tomorrow night – I actually demanded it two weeks ago, but knowing the above I knew it would take him some time.
Fortunately I’ve known about this addiction from the beginning and have watched him like a hawk. I already know a good portion of what’s going to be in this… but I also know that there is a good deal I’m not aware of yet, and that scares me. He knows it’s honesty or divorce at this point.
I’ve promised myself to leave my taser and 10 inch kitchen knife in the car when I meet him in the hotel later. It’s going to be a long weekend. I keep telling myself its only 2 days – then he’s out of my life again for a few months.
I think the process takes so long because SA’s, and even people who have affairs, are in a fog that takes them about 90 days to come out of at a minimum. I don’t see any manipulation. I told my husband to leave until he could start telling me the truth about everything. Somewhere in there, he started working on the disclosure. He didn’t know whether I would stay or go. He thought once I heard everything I would leave for sure, but he also came to understand the only way to heal himself was through disclosure and the only hope of any kind of a relationship with me was through disclosure. I think the SA has to get to the place where they really, really want to heal and get out of this mess they’re in, before they can fully disclose. That takes time and hard work. Once they decide they really want their life back, even without the spouse who may very well leave anyway, they are ready to work on disclosure. My husband’s counselor made him wallow in the disclosure process for 6 weeks. H was desperate to get the disclosure information out and over with once he wrote all the stuff out (maybe a three week process working night and day on week-ends and taking some days off to work on it too). H was horrified with who he’d become. His counselor kept telling him the disclosure is more for his healing than for mine. We both see that so clearly now. You cannot come to terms with who you’ve become if you don’t wallow in all the details of what you did for awhile alone, knowing you are going to have to tell the person who will be most disturbed by this information. Yes, Daisy, I put together a list of questions. From the first day of counselling, my H’s counselor told H, H has hurt me more deeply than anyone can ever hurt a person. H will ultimately tell me everything I want to know because that is one of the requirements for both of us to heal. I agree.
My husband considers the disclosure the turning point for him. The disclosure was the beginning of feeling authentic again for him, the true beginning of healing. My counselor and H’s counselor were in the room with us. He said the first three activities on his 7 page, single spaced disclosure. I asked numerous questions during the disclosure, then I got sick of it all and started talking about the biggest ways I felt hurt and violated and abandoned. It was a fabulous experience for me. I went home, read the disclosure over a week’s time. I had him come to the house for three day’s straight, over a week-end to talk all day and all night about every, single line on that seven pages. I screamed, I raged, I told him off about every, single line. His response was exactly what I wanted. His counselor said bravo for her! Then, I stayed away from H for 2.5 more months, certain I was divorcing him and filing for divorce. Now I have back the guy I was married to for 23 years and dated for 3 years. We have been together for 36 years. I’m thinking of turning the divorce into a post-nupt agreement where I would get 100% of our assets. This latter idea is something my H came up with.
Penny, I’m so glad you’ve got what you want out of this process. I can also understand getting sick of it all. It’s good to read of someone who had good support and therapy and an SA who is ready to put it all on the line
Daisy and Catherine, thanks so much for telling us more of your experience. I hope talking those things out here helps you to know what you want and need for yourselves. Sometimes when we finally get the particulars out, it clarifies things for us. Maybe it IS all about the details.
annblack—you have a taser?! a new imagination tool!
re: who is the disclosure for?
I understand that the disclosure as it is designed by the SA treatment model, is for the SA. That’s my problem. Everything is always for the SA. No asks what the partner needs or want. No one asks what is best for her and when its best. We aren’t all the same. We may answer differently. But we aren’t even factored in enough to be asked. No one asks what we deserve in the way of truth or , or what is fair to us. Our trauma is never a priority until it suits them to acknowledge it.
The question of who the disclosure is for does not only have ONE answer. That’s my point.I suppose I have a lot to thank that hooker for otherwise I’d be in my state of blissful ignorance thinking I had the best marriage in the world. It all to unravel sometime so better now than later.
Penny I love your posts. It is very hard to generalise with these men because there are bad apples and there are rotten to the core apples. I think my husband was in a fog too and maybe still is to some degree. The point at which they stepped outside the marriage is so significant to us but I think some of them can’t remember that first time and have difficulty placing events in their SA life in some sort of meaningful context in time. When we recall dates or events we put them in some sort of context with other events at the same time to work out some time frame or chronology. For example I might say we bought our house in Katie’s last year of Primary School. We had the summer holidays in the house and then Katie started her first year of High School and we have the photo of her at the front of the house with Sarah on her first day. They simply don’t do that because there is no meaning or emotion attached to anything they do in their SA world.
It is true that it is all in a big fog that they can’t see through and it would take a very long time for them to piece it all together. My concern is for the partner and I wonder of it is a really horrible time sitting on your hands and waiting to hear it all so you know if there is any point salvaging the relationship.
Penny your husband is a very lucky man that you are so understanding and I’m sure he will try to make it up to you if that is at all possible.
I’m really pleased that you see things as they are and you are finding some peace or like Bev said ‘closure’.questions of the day.
why do we have to hire professionals to ask our husbands questions we want/need/deserve to be answered?
why can’t disclosure happen at home in our living rooms? wth our bff close by for support? –and to keep us from killing them.
how is it that sah pay prostitutes for sex. and then we pay therapists to tell us about it. and then the therapist shows us how we “enabled” it to happen.
i just can’t play the game. its a no win.
What little I knew was bad enough. I wouldn’t listen to my Xh disclosure which would likely be ‘watered down’ if you paid me. He can keep all that miserable information to himself and stick it up his ass. I’m not going to pollute my mind with his ‘play book’. I know this helps people but for me, it would be self torture. It would only reinforce why I should avoid him at all costs. He’s already a liar and a cheater. I could never trust him for anything. A snake in the grass.
I said that to the damn CSAT and to my H and to the idiot MC that told me “I wasn’t allowed to bring up any of this at home….only in her office”
Fuck That.
If my H wants or needs to do a disclosure for himself then he has my blessing. The chances that I am going to sit in some idiot’s office and have my H read to me every hooker he banged is ZERO.
I ask and he answers or he can go. That is my rule or boundary or whatever.
Any questions that I have, I will use a poly at Minwalla’s for them. I will only do that after I decide whether I am staying, leaving, or continuing in limbo hell.
I do understand the need to know when you feel there is so much that you did not uncover. I was very thorough once I hit detective mode…
Pam, I love your post. When you take a step back, it is all so ludicrous.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I do consider myself and my kids victims. We are the victims of fraud, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and theft (of my money, my career, my time and energy, my life, my kids’ financial security and support system, etc.). And we are still being victimized and abused. What my STBX has done to us is nothing short of criminal, even if that system does not recognize it as such. I also consider us on our way to surviving. We aren’t there yet, but we will be.
pam, it really is messed up. I’ve come to the understanding that in order for these men to do what they do it’s all objectification. They objectify women in photos, movies, at work, on the street, at church – how do we believe they’re not objectifying us too…
They can’t give us answers for two reasons. First in their heads we are non-entities. When they aren’t sober we are only objects. Who argues with the refrigerator or confesses to the couch. Second their mental block protecting them from feeling remorse and pain understands just enough to know that even though we are objects we can hurt them worse through our actions and words than they are already hurting. They can’t argue with themselves that what they’re doing isn’t so bad if they see our pain… so they “protect us” from their evil site – yeah right. They’re only protecting themselves.
Since we have become nothing more than animated objects with no human feeling that are a constant itching reminder to them that what they’re doing is terribly horribly wrong it usually takes time and someone else to drag the truth out of them.
Their brains are truly wired differently than sane people. If we want answers we’re going to have to wait for a translator – and yes it sucks.
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