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We are still living in the same house and are trying to work out a settlement.
His Proposal 1
Value the house and total acreage at 225,000.00. Split all debt. No business value. No spousal support.
His proposal 2
Value the house and total acreage at 250,000.00. Split the mortgages. I assume joint Visa and my Visa. He assumes all other debt. $500.00 per month spousal support for two years.
His proposal 3
I keep house and ten acres. Value 167,000.00 He keeps 3 lots (6 acres) and 22 acres. No business value. Separate personal property. He will live on the acreage and keep my drive plowed for the winter. He will eventually put a house or trailer on a lot for his residence. $500.00 month for two years.
Proposal 4
Number 3 plus a few tools to maintain property: mower, snow blower. He also said he got a guesstimate on a mortgage for me, wrapping all my debt together for a payment of $400 a month for ten years.My thoughts.
I would rather have a cash out (real estate and business)and have a fresh start, modest house (paid for) and a few k in the bank for emergency and spousal support for five years @1,000.00 per month. I don’t think I’ll get that much support though.If I take the house and ten, the extra equity in the house would compensate for the value of the business and a few years of spousal support. A couple sticking points on my taking the house,
1. We live in a seasonal road 20 miles from town and we plow the road 1/2 mile. I’ll have to hire that done.
2. The access road to the lower pole barn will be across his property unless I have a road built.
3. All my equity will be in the house and I’ll have a small mortgage.
4. I can’t control what he does with his share of the property or where he lives but I can sell if it is too hard to be neighbors.The good things are, I get to keep my home. It’s a secluded paradise in the summer. I know the problems in my house. I can sell it if I need to get out. I don’t have to move 25 years of accumulation. Some of my grandkids live next door.
IDK and I have to make a decision.
If any of you are quick with numbers and savvy in this way would you be willing to chat with me and help me see my options clearly? I am a numbers idiot.
Like if I take the house and then sell later will I have to pay capital gains?
I welcome your input here.
Thanks, Debora
Debora, I don’t remember the facts of your situation but there are a number of huge red flags for me in all his proposals. Spousal support is often based on length of marriage. If this is a long term marriage and you have been at home raising children, etc. for most or all of that time then two years of spousal support seems very low. The fact that he does not want to value the business is a big red flag. That means it HAS value, probably more than you know and he wants to keep it. There is no reason to split the debt 50-50 if he is earning more than you. It can be split proportionate to your income – especially since he has a spending problem (I think that’s right?). Trying to live as next door neighbors will keep you tied to him. Trust me, he will have his nose in your business constantly. If you go with the option that requires you to cross his property to get to your barn, make sure you get a permanent easement. Otherwise he can legally cut off your access at any time. The biggest red flag of all is that he wants to do this without lawyers. Time and time again, I have seen that mean that assets are being hidden. The wife NEVER comes out with a fair deal in that situation. Never. Before you agree to anything, pay the money to run the settlement proposals past an experienced divorce attorney who knows the laws and the courts in your area. Consider it an investment in your future because that is exactly what it is. The attorney will be able to give you some idea of the tax/capital gains implications as well.
Never, never do something like this without an attorney. Mine tried that too, “let’s put our heads together and divide things up otherwise the lawyers will get it all.” This is nothing but a con game to avoid a fair division of assets. Or, like Daisy said, there could be hidden assets he doesn’t want you to know about. Are you in a no-fault state? If so, it’s fifty fifty and just tell him he can talk to your lawyer and you will follow the laws of the state you’re in. If it’s an at-fault state things will work differently depending on the state, but in either case you need an atty to advise and protect your interests. I believe this is one of the most insidious things these men do, try to take advantage of our feelings for them and our natural reluctance to battle them in court, to screw us over financially as they exit. I know – believe me I know – how hard it is to talk to a lawyer and face up to where he’s dragged you to, but you’ll be far worse off if you don’t.
Most of flags Daisy raised were in my head but less clearly formed.
I am wondering why you think it might be better to do with without a lawyer. I understand the money saved, but what about the money lost in the settlement?
Maybe you should do some MLS search to see if there’s something else you could get excited about moving to. Staying where you are should be because you love it and want to grow old there and it suits you perfectly, not because it’s inconvenient and your are so worn out all ready.
I’m concerned about him being on the property. I just think he still has control because you have to deal with him.I don’t like all the little details. He’s covering up the value of the business. IMO.
Debora,
I’m terrible at the number crunching, but mine wanted to go without lawyers. Thank God I didn’t let him intimidate me in this final dance with him. It still has yet to play out, and yes, I’ve spent money, but thank God. I know it was the best decision I could possibly make. Be careful Debora. You have such a good heart. I want the best and most amazing future for you!
xoxoxoxo JulieI’m a Realtor, so know a little about property laws. First off, you should have an appraisal done by a bank on your property. It will probably cost about $500 to $700 depending on the costs in your state, but it is well worth it. You have a lot of acreage, and you need to know what a bank thinks it’s worth in case you keep the house and decide to sell later. Also, if you keep the house, you will be responsible for capital gains when you go to sell it. However, there is a $250,000 allowance for an individual before you are taxed on the gains, so if you don’t think that your home will sell for more than $250,000 over what you paid for it (and any additional capital improvements), then that shouldn’t be a concern for you.
You should also contact a tax professional to see if it is considered a gain for you to receive the house in a settlement (in essence, you’re “gaining” his share of the home), and if you’d be taxed on that share in the year that you receive the settlement. That part of the equation I’m not familiar with, so a tax accountant would be money well spent to meet with for an hour.
Finally, it is imperative that you consult an attorney. There are too many variables here for you to be well protected on your own. Your h scares me with his bible preaching and shooting the gun off in the barn and hiding/moving things around on you (those are just some of the memories that I have of him that you’ve told us – hope I’m not mixing you up with another sister). I don’t trust him to not be concocting some sort of huge trap for you.
Finally, you love your home, but I’d fear for you being that far from town depending on your xh to plow your road in order to get out. I think it might be a breath of fresh air for you to move closer to other people, and to meet new people. It’s a pain to have to pack and move 25 years worth of stuff, but it can also be liberating to toss tons of stuff away.
Keep us posted.
Thanks for your views girls.
I DO have an attorney. My husband and I were just trying to get some ideas down to present to our attys. My atty said if we come up with an agreement, he will look it over and draw up the settlement. OR we can take our basic ideas and meet together, each with our own atty and hammer something out. OR, if that fails, meet with our attys and a mediator. The final step if it all fails is to let a judge decide. We both want to try and settle as fast as we can. He is going to the banks checking on what he’ll be able to finance to buy me out.
We will get an appraisal on the house no matter who keeps it. The bank will require it for either to get a loan. So the real estate division will be fair. The business value that is the deal breaker. That is the biggest reason I wanted to keep the house, to have equity that he will not pay out through the business without a big fight.
I’m willing to move. I have a storage unit, movers lined up and a place to stay for the winter while I find a new home. I have a realtor looking for me and I spend a lot of time on homes.com. My children have stepped up and said they will help me fix up a new place.
This is a crazy day. We talked about his latest offer this morning. I worked up the guts to tell him he’s short on the spousal support. He offered another year. Wow! he’s negotiating. I told him they have formulas to determine the amount and length of payment and that I have to use my atty for that. He made a lot of noise about the business again. I suggested taking a couple of the lots in exchange for the business value.
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We have moments of levity. He said, “I’ve been sitting here like a frog in the water waiting to get boiled.” That struck me funny and I started laughing and then he started laughing.Later he says if he doesn’t keep the house, maybe he’ll go to Mississippi with his buddy and see what’s down there. SIRENS went off in my head. There goes my spousal support. He said he knows I’ll need some help getting established. Confusing.
Now that we have an outline, I asked if we could make an appt. with our lawyers and finish it.
Tomorrow, I’m meeting with a girlfriend MBA and former spouse (office manager) of a divorce attorney to review the numbers. I’ll let you know about that.
I guess the dilemma is house vs. business and alimony. The bird in the hand worth two in the bush. I’m calling to get bids on the plowing today.
Ali, interesting about gaining his equity. But wouldn’t he have his share in the vacant land and his business?
My head hurts. Thank you Daisy and Ali for your expert opinions.
I bought myself a kickass pair of cowgirl boots.
More later, Love Debora
Just called around for bids on snowplowing. First call was a guy that plows a single woman in my area, same stats, 1/2 mile dirt road, on call, no contract. Thirty five bucks. $35.00!!! I thought it would be $200.00. This is doable. All this worrying about the unknown. Geez, make the flipping phone calls!!
Have my pretrial paperwork due tomorrow. Called to ask for an extension since we may not make our final November 18 final hearing date. No problem, don’t need to file an extension. The pretrial paperwork does not lock me into that final date.
At first my h said he wanted to live in the camper in the pole barn (living free) with his stuff stored there and keep the drive plowed for me. So I threw out remaining status quo, living as housemates until spring, but splitting the bills since he would have to rent somewhere and pay utilities anyways, win/win. (Now he says he doesn’t want to do that if I get the property. Says he doesn’t want to take care of me but if he gets the house I can stay here until spring.
Hello??? What’s the difference?? The difference is that he would be living in MY house and his ego can’t handle that. He moved into MY house when we were first married and we had to sell it and get OUR house; read, HIS HOUSE. He is so fucking transparent and he doesn’t even know it.
OK then. Have it your way and get your shit out of my pole barns.
Deborah,
You are doing so well. I am proud of you, sister. I know that this process sucks, but you are going to have a whole new life that is going to be all your own. Keep working it. You’ll get there.I agree with the comments thus far.
Just wonder, what would the agreement look like if YOU were the one doing the presenting, and not him?
Glad you have the attorney and friend as support and sounding boards. He does not sound like he’s fully accepted that he will not get out of this with just a few years support.
I am so very proud of you Debora. It sounds like you are doing a great job.
I suppose that I would always choose cash in hand over spousal support because going after him for non payment will be a bitch and a half. Get all the money up front that you can. Maybe figure out what 3 years of support would total and offer to settle for half up front ( in property or cash) ??
That’s just my gut reaction. I don’t trust him to pay….
I’m glad you’re getting professional advice!
I agree that since your h isn’t a normal person (no sa’s are), you would probably be safer getting your $$ upfront and not waiting for spousal support (especially if he decides to move to Mississippi with his friend!). I’d have your attorney work out the most upfront assets that you can get and then be rid of his ass. No waiting for monthly checks from him.
Hey Debora, all those numbers make my head hurt too. 🙁 Good advice from the girls as always. I do think he’s probably working up new ways to screw you over as we speak…. be very wary. I hate him
This is a tough one on the spousal support vs cash up front. As far as I know, in Canada, you cannot escape paying alimony by moving to another province so they cannot get away from it once it is decided. But I don’t understand how that works in the states.
You sound strong and even good Debora and I am very glad to hear that. Hugs KarenKaren,
In the US, because the courts that handle family law are by state, when they move to another state and stop paying, you have to apply for enforcement in the state where you live, and they have to communicate with the state where the orders were drawn which “holds the case” and then they have to communicate and get enforcement through the courts and maybe police in the state where the man lives. At least that’s how the children’s father has gotten 80K behind. He will stay in place for no more than six paychecks once they catch him and enforce the wage garnishing. He just moves to another state whenever they find him. The fastest they’ve put the garnishments back in place after he relocates is 4 months between VA and NC. In 9 years he’s lived in four states and spent two years overseas. The longest wait for enforcement so far for me has been when he moved to FL, it has been 3.5 years to date and still waiting. He will stay in place for about six paychecks once they catch him and enforce the wage garnishing, then move again.
I understand that some states are more “resistant” to enforcing alimony and child support and think that Mississippi is one of those.
Even if they don’t move states, they can just quit working (like Nap’s xpos did) so there’s nothing to garnish.
Better, imo, to not keep any strings attached.
We have come to an agreement.
He will cash me out for 1/2 the value of our house and property ($125,000) and will assume all debt with the exception of our joint Visa and my personal Visa (total $7,000).
$500.00 per month spousal support for 4 years backed by his life insurance policy in the event of his death. In the event of nonpayment backed by our vacant land.
Equitably dividing our personal property.
He is going to fix the wheel bearing on my boat trailer and I am going to make him soap. No kidding.
We’re going to have Christmas together in our home.
We’re done fighting.
Now we have to dissolve my partnership in the corporation, untangle insurance policies and utilities, etc.
He said I could stay in the house until I find another and that I can leave my stuff here rather than move to storage. Not sure if I will do that.
He told me that he recently spoke with his son (my stepson of 28 years) and he told him that all our kids have talked to each other and if either of us create any undo hardship on the other, the kids will have a lot to say about it. I have waited and wondered about my children’s support for a long time.
I have a job interview next Tuesday.
Wow Deb, what does your lawyer think about it? And what about the business do you get half it’s value?
Love, NapxoI haven’t run this by him yet. I think it’s a good agreement. I have to let the business value go in exchange for him taking his debt (because legally it is OUR debt) and to insure that he has employment to pay my support.
I’ll let you know what my lawyer thinks.
What does our resident lawyer think? Daisy???
So how did the house value go from 225 to 167 to 150?
Not sure, Debora, I think you are one of savviest women on here. do you feel like he’s wearing you down? I understand that. Who gets the lots? the business value?He requires that you keep his secrets from the family? Is that right? If so, what do you think about that. Makes me squirm.
Glad you feel good about the agreement between the two of you. Glad you are getting more input.
You are on the home run!
Thanks Diane for making me account. The property values differed according to the split.
Value Debt Wife Husband
House and 10 acres (167K)
3- 2 acre lots (35K) 250,000 (TOTAL) 35,000 125,000 90,000
22 acres (48K)
IRA 8,000 4,000 4,000
Business 100,000 100,000
Envoy 10,000 10,000
f-350 9,000 9,000
Sea Ray boat 18,000 12,700 7,300
Century boat 5,000 5,000
Tractor 8,500 8,500
Camper 2,000 2,000
4 Wheeler 2,000 2,000
Harley 3,650 3,650
Sauna 2,000 2,000
2 credit cards 14,000 -14,000
Joint VISA 4,700 – 4,700
Home Depot 2,400 – 2,400
Business loan 9,000 – 9,000
Deb’s VISA 2,000 – 2,000Sub total 139,300 201,050
Spousal support (4 years) 24,000
Mineral rights (possible future value) 20,000
Total 183,300 201,050Personal property heavy on his side but he has agreed to divide tools, appliances, etc.
The value of the business is actually accounted for but not formally appraised.
Is there anything you think I am missing? All EarsI typed up a balance ledger on Word and tried to paste it here. It got all discombobulated without set columns. So I’ll try to clarify with words.
House, barns ten acres, $167,000
Three 2 acre lots $33,000
22 acre parcel $50,000Total value $250,000
The property numbers changed according to the division of the property. I was going to keep the house and ten $167,000. Now he is going to keep the whole property. $250,000, paying me my half $125,000.
A business value of $100,000 is added into his asset column. This is a phone value, given by a certified business appraiser based on our past 7 years of gross income. He has about $25,000 in miscellaneous equipment. Actual asset vs. goodwill. So the business IS actually valued. My H had a very hard time with the thought of getting an appraisal and putting hard numbers down on paper but his offer to me includes this ghost value. Just like the spousal support is a future value.
DEBT; Also HE is taking the debt for the mortgages (which includes my SUV), business loan, his credit cards, home depot, big boat.
FREE and CLEAR; I get my SUV, small boat, sauna and the cash to pay off my credit card and buy a modest house. I will have a home and my things with no debt. I will be able to make enough money to pay my property taxes, car insurance, utilities, gas and groceries and misc living expenses.
Question? Does it seem smarter to put $50,000 down and buy a nicer house with a mortgage, having the money in the bank and investments to cover an emergency payment and get the interest write off? OR pay cash for a house? No write off but no worries of foreclosure.
PERSONAL PROPERTY; We split the household things evenly but he has a lot of value in guns, guitars and tools, that he has finally loosened up on. Since he has the big tractor with the mower, tiller and blade implements, I am taking the walk behind rototiller, snowblower, and riding mower. He was shocked at first that I wanted these things, (his precious stuff which he says is not precious “just the tool for the job” whereas stuff for my department was a big gift – refrigerator, washer) So, I’m evening out the value of these big appliances by taking things I will need to buy for a new home. Small stuff too, gas cans, rakes, flathead shovels.
He’s getting really nice now that we are closing in on it. He said, “I either fight hard or give up and I’m giving up now.” Black and white, all or nothing thinking.
Lynn, I chose to wait him out. It was a conscious strategy. A hard one. His MO is to avoid the conflict but create enough discomfort that I would react so can be the victim.
I also didn’t want to outright ask for what I was entitled to because he thought it was all his. I needed others to tell him he had to share and educate him about what is standard in a split. It cost me three years of my life but I am walking away with a better emotional settlement between us and for our family. I heard about his first wife screwing him and the “unfair man hating system” for 28 years. I wanted him to concede to an equitable split and he finally did.
I know this may not work for many others but there are some here who are working that same strategy.
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