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I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I have a good friend from way back who has become a gambling addict over the last 10 years and I have seen the changes in her that go along with an escalating addiction… self centered, narcissistic, demanding, inconsiderate, impulsive. And because I only see her once in a while, it’s easier for me to remember that she is at her core… a warm, loving, kind, and generous woman that I care very much about. She’s very difficult to spend much time with now and I would find it impossible to live with her.
I also know from practicing clinical medicine how much people change when they become addicts and the addiction progresses. And I know from clinical medicine how delightful and surprising it often is when they are in recovery from the addiction and their core personality can be seen again. ( I don’t mean to imply that everyone who recovers is delightful at their core, because that obviously isn’t true…people are people and there is a lot of variation:)
Their is a lot of talk about how sex addicts don’t change, their personality won’t change. And I agree, personalities don’t change. But when someone is in recovery from an addiction, we can see who someone is at their core if they let us. My husband seemingly changed a lot over the time he has been in SA recovery, but really he was just getting himself back again. He didn’t change his basic personality. Even then, I still was unhappy with the way he related to me…..Now with the intimacy anorexia recovery, his personality still hasn’t changed, but he has more of himself back, and he’s able to share that with me. He’s always going to leave his shoes out for us to trip over, think Rodney Dangerfield was hilarious, tend to get obsessive about special projects, and watch TV for an hour at the end of the day to unwind. Recovery hasn’t changed who he is, but it has allowed him to be who he is.Marie,
I like what you posted. We must not see the addiction AS THE PERSON. BUT….
If you are unsure if a person is IN recovery and may see glimpses of truth mixed with self-delusion and denial, it is confusing. Is my h being kind because he sees the damage done, or to get in my pants, so to speak? When there is so much destructive lying and deceiving over the years, and those years mixed with much “love” from him also, it is unclear. The foundation being shattered and his so-called personality of humor and kindness may be the narcissist mask. So I totally agree with your comments, just not sure in my case who my h really is now or was before or will be in the future…recovered or covered by a mask??? I am not certain I will ever be able to determine this. Quite sad.
(I am still working on the video and book we talked about.)
Hugs to you and I love reading your posts, B. Trayed
Another thought I had was that my h said he felt very invisible as a youth, and one day at a family picnic, I think, he realized when he was funny, he got attention from people. So even his humor, and he IS witty, is questionable. Sometimes with my son’s fiancee, he tries so hard to be funny; it is almost embarrassing. Usually though, he is genuinely funny and brings chuckles to everyone. Still, is that his basic personality or manipulation for people to like him? I guess it is his basic personality, because being witty is not something you can really manufacture; however, he may be using parts of his personality to manipulate people? I am sure many of us have done that. Perhaps I have been kind to get something from someone. It happens, and is not pretty-nothing I want to do-ever. If it is chronic though, that is trouble, and very troubling if one thinks her husband is doing it. B.
Very well said, Marie! “Recovery hasn’t changed who he is, but it has allowed him to be who he is”….I couldn’t agree with you more and I touched upon that on my blog not to long ago although you summed it much more neatly 😉
My husband was active duty military when I married him five years ago. He volunteered at the SPCA and for the Special Olympics. He did various volunteer work for the new airmen coming into his squadron. His sense of humor was just as off kilter and wacky as mine. He was a good and decent man. He looked at porn on occasion and we watched it together; I was far from a prude. Then, I got sick a year after our marriage and *poof* the addiction that was already there and festering took it’s hold and that man, the one I loved so dearly became lost to me. It wasn’t until two months or so into his sobriety that I began to see him again; the real him. And, even still, there are days that it’s only a glimpse of his former self then other days where it’s the true him.
I’m grateful that I knew who he was before the addiction progressed and that I’m seeing that man again. I’m also happy for you too, Marie, I’m happy that your husband is enjoying the little things in life again.
Hugs,
SS
Hi b.trayed,
If your husband really gets into recovery and stays there, you’ll know. The thoughts you are having, I think, are ones I had when he was actively addicted and during early recovery. My bottom line is if I was wondering if I was being manipulated…. I probably was. My husband got attention for humor, too, but I could tell the difference between his real humor and his attention getting, “wind up monkey” humor. I hadn’t thought about it, but I haven’t seen that wind up monkey humor for a long time.
MarieThanks Marie. When his inconsistent statements come up, even if a week apart, it makes me suspicious. Like the other day he said he did not do “porn.” Previously, in front of a counselor, he said he did do porn. Anyway, when I hear these discrepancies, they make me wonder??? How do you change your story like that? I will ask him, and he will probably get into semantics. “What is porn really??? I think of porn as hard-core stuff. I masterbated all over town to softer stuff, like pre-porn material; so that really isn’t porn.” Between these discrepancies are beautiful times of laughter, sitting by the pond, etc. Makes finding their true identities very difficult. Thanks. B. Trayed
Just to add a comment about humor….”The tears of a clown when no ones around”. Humor may also be a way to mask pain, many comedians are bipolar or have history of depression.
Clowns always creep kids out, now I know why???
My h was a professional clown for 10 years!!! Scary!!!
Last comment just a joke! B.
I just had a meeting with my husband about finances – I am meeting my lawyer so I thought it would be good for us to chat. Anyway, I am noticing, the less I say, the more he adds. Sounds like a simple idea, but I am here to tell ya, my SA hates the silence and will throw up information like an 8 year old.
Marie, I like what you wrote and its a good point.
Many SA’s start at a young age though. And many SA’s are really functioning at a level of an 8-10 year old, and many SA’s actually do not know who they are without the addiction. Some SA’s who maybe pick it up later in life, know who they are and there are glimpses, similar to your friend, however i think many have been doing this so long they really have no idea who they are. The addiction is so ingrained. And then i think they may start to grow and grow up, from the age of an 8-10 year old.
My H would say he can be who ever i want, he has no idea who or what he is. He had such a full life of dependencies..its scarry.
Everyone is a person though. Actually we are all people too, outside of our SA’s and their addictions. But some people will never be whole, some people are nuts, some people are mother theresa, some people are saints, and some people are wackadoodles. You just never know.
Love,
FloraFlora describes so well my h unfortnately. He would often say he didn’t know who he was. He would be who ever he needed to be at the time. I know my h addiction started at a young age. The night I called the police because I thought he was going to hurt himself, he was in the shower screaming, “Who am I, Who am I?” The sad part is, I really don’t know who he is either.
Marie and Betrayed – The change of stories is so typical of the SA. Mine will tell one story one minute and 2 minutes later it will be different. Am not sure if they just can’t keep they’re stories straight, or they began to believe the lies they are telling. I can also see Steve changing from a very conservative persona to the “class clown” personality. They really wear two masks – they’re true selves, and the one that no-one really knows. I wonder if we can ever truly know an SA, because they are so protected and hidden.
Mine is just in the infancy of starting to disclose truthfully, but usually I have to call his attention to it and tell him to focus and tell the truth. This usually brings about fairly good results, although how will we ever know for sure if we are getting the truth. I guess maybe by a change in behavior.I am seeing some of that, but he has a really long ways to go.
I agree, Flora, with such a life-long process I have to wonder if they ever will really know who they are.
What I see are really sincere attempts to get better, and then a cycle of turning off to me and on to addiction-It seems to me that most of these guys cannot sustain any sobriety or intimacy for any length of time – especially when they are 68 y/o. I hope I am not being too pessimistic – I just think the older they are the more difficult it would be to see anything but cosmetic changes.
Steve is quite realistic about the fact that he will always be an addict, but hopes he can get to the point where it is manageable. He is able to relate to how much he has hurt me, and I think when they are able to show empathy that is progress.
This counselor believes the EMDR will have dramatic results – I will be a believer when I see it. I do know that Patrick Carnes, Weiss, and others are using it at they’re facilities. Who knows??? Not enough literature and studies to know yet. Marie – I am happy your’e husband is doing so well – wish I could be as positive about mine.
Meanwhile, the antidepressants have kicked in and I do see a difference in my depression. If I could get to the point where his addiction is not so devestating to me, and gain acceptance to “It is what it is,” I think I could function in a much more healthy manner. I am getting there. It is a tough road.I base my statement on what my therapist told me and what i have read. When an addict stops using they are basically at the age they were when they started. So my h was bascially 10 or so, if not younger.
That is very interesting Flora. I have not heard that, but I have heard (and experienced) that there are major immaturity problems with SA’s.
What boggles my mind, is that a narcissist/SA is quite capable of great deceit and well-planned cover-ups. SA’s can lie to our face for 20 years and do what it takes to keep the marriage going. This is not baby behavior; these are very intelligent, well-thought out plans/behaviors. It is a little perplexing to me.
Hugs, b. trayedzachette ~ so true he who speaks first looses! my h hates the silence thing and he starts spewing info. That’s why its driving him crazy that I want to wait to get info from polygraph…he wants to let it all out now. so impulsive!
Hi betrayed, i am not really sure i understand either, but that is what i have read many times.
I think its the level of mental maturity, they are stuck there per say. And actually a ten year old, without proper upbrining in a hostile environment, will lie like crazy, and because they have not “learned” empahty in anyway…will continue to do so. They are in essence stunted. They say most narcissist and other behaviors start are learend about the age of 5, they are already formed. And in young kids 10-teens; it really is the world of me. Narcissism at its height, but its part of the world of a teen.So for me i know think of my h in that respect. Lack of responsibility, lack of any idea of consequenses, lack of any conscience. lack of idea of right and wrong…on and on. He functions more like a kid than and adult.
Curious if others have any thoughts.
Immaturity is the hallmark of a Sex Addict. When Larry first started counseling we had a joint session and his counselor said that Larry had the emotional maturity of a 10-11 year old.
Larry was furious! He stewed over that for years! Now he realizes that it is true. Unfortunately growth is slow. He still acts like a selfish teen at times, especially with doing chores around the house. He either forgets, needs constant reminders or does them so poorly that I am tempted to do it myself (HA! That’s just what he wants–so that never works.)
Now I just make him lists and expect him to do it.
But, emotionally he is growing, so there is hope.
So it is true. HArd to wrap your head around at the time, especially when you are so tired of looking after a teen in an adult body. Ugh. So it does make sense even with Larry. I know it makes sense with mine too, however have not seen him grow up. But there is hope for others and how this works. So they do grow up after the addiction is found. Was curious how that worked.
At my stage in life i really did/do not have the capacity to wait for my husband to grow up. I felt it best for him to do it on his own, especially when one of our big issues was money. i could not continue to foot the bills, while he went to school ….yet again. As i have said, three kids is really enough!! Ages 3, 14 and 15 – i have a full plate.
I am glad you see progress with Larry. So happy for you.
Flora
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