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I took my nap. Now my sleep is really going to be messed up. (I’ll just email Deb all night)
So he had his meeting with his sponsor. He hasn’t said much and he didn’t take the night off of work. Thank God.
All he did was send me an email with a link to some couple’s intensive with a subject title of “desperate’ that said:
“This is expensive but I don’t care about that. My sponsor swears by this. PLEASE consider this. Anything but divorce. That shouldn’t even be the last option. It should be NO option. That is a conscious decision. I am closing the doors and locking them on our marriage. There is no walking out. There is no exit door. I have almost given up a couple of times. The most important thing is that I haven’t and you haven’t. I am pleading with you not to give up now.”
I haven’t responded.
hi Kim
Indeed it does sound that way. perhaps some reality is seeping into his weepy brain. what is the intensive about? is it basic marriage retreat? or does it deal with SA?
better question, do you even care?
enjoy your quiet time
Kim – I would kill for an SAH like that. Sounds like he really wants the marriage to work and he is doing the walk. Wow! Can I marry him? (just kidding – I wouldn’t marry an SA if my life depended on it).
He really is into working on himself….geeezzzzz…wonder what got into him? This is not typical SAH behavior (sorry to be cynical). I want to know how to get my SAH to drink the kool-aid – what happened with him?
Sounds like he is really scared that you are going to walk – remember, abandonment issues many times feeds their addiction – sounds like yours has it bad.
I’ll be up late sister…..hubby is out of town so I’m enjoying the peace and quiet.
Deb
Wow – a complete 180, I want a divorce, oh no, hang on don’t leave me, I’ll promise to work at it, I’ll do anything, just don’t leave me.
In my opinion, you both need a separation, time apart to think shit thru, work out what you want for yourself, you will survive & most likely thrive without the relationship, you will not disappear because you are not married to your SAH.
And if after some distance & some healing you think, cool my life is better for having him in it, then dive in to couples work.
Just my opinion, hun!
Take care
TanyaPam,
From what I can tell it is not a SA intensive. Which seems like a waste of money.Deb,
I think he believes everything he says… for now. He just swore to me a month ago how commited to me he was. I said, “you said that when we married, did you mean it?” He said, “yes.” I told him, “so then you can see why those words mean nothing to me.” I’ll email and see if you’re still up.Tanya,
I won’tleave unless it’s for good. No offense ladies who are seperated waiting to see if their H’s get their act together… it doesn’t matter if it seems togeter for a year or 5… it is no predictor of tomorrow. That is not cynicism due to the current situation talking. I’m a positive person but accepted that truth very soon into this mess.Two things I did tell him today are:
1 . It sounds to me like he only wants the marriage to end on HIS terms
2. That becoming a person I LIKE (and I think it is important that I like me! I used to) may only be possible by leaving.I have a horrible anxiety and dread feeling in my chest, I snooped through his computer and phone for the first time in over 6 months. I researched the info to retrieve his deleted history. I have found it very difficult to refrain from grilling him about past and recent behavior.
I HATE being this person. I am not a control freak. I have always found that living the saying, “Don’t sweat the small stuff and it’s all small stuff” has made me happy. Therefore feeling like this is making me miserable. Blech.
Kim,
My therapist pointed out to me today (not that I needed to hear it again, or maybe I did) that I can’t believe a word that my SAH says because he changes like the wind. I should just look at behavior… and not get to excited by anything good or bad that he says. I’m going to try and remember this!
I also view his yo-yo stuff as an opportunity for me to practice my detachment/zen like state. I’m definitely getting better at it, but it take practice. God knows that I’m getting a lot of opportunity….
Deb
Oh Kim,
I feel for you and the roller coaster ride you are on right now. Ugh!! Although I am relieved that he is not in your face about wanting a divorce and all that stress, I am so afraid for you that it may crop up again. Blech….
Obviously, your SA is Sooo confused right now. I don’t think any major decisions should be made at this time. It DOES suck tho that HE can say he wants a divorce and then turn around a couple days later and HE can say the door is closed…there is NO EXIT. Really? Says who?I know that if you have your wish, the family will stay in tact and I really do understand that… For all the obvious reasons and also, some of the more personal ones that you have shared with us (health issues, etc). I’m just worried about you right now because all this shit is taking a toll on you. And unfortunately, like we always say… That’s life with an SA. 🙁 I KNOW you don’t envision this kind of turmoil for the rest of your days and you shouldn’t have to. You are such a special person and such an awesome Mom and really, a great wife too and it is so unfair to have to endure this pain. I know there are no easy answers for you, but I want you to know that I have been thinking about you alot since your 8 hours of crying post. Sigh…..
Isn’t it interesting that we can go about our day and think about people we have never even met in person… And truly care about them and consider their struggles and options (or lack of) and try to come up with some positive feedback for them? That is the beauty of this site and the friendships that we have found here! Thank GOD for SOS!! What a life line in so many ways!!
Thinking of YOU, sister! Keep posting!
Love,
SL
Kim
You are right all you have is now, who knows what will happen in the future.
I understand you are not interested in separation, maybe it isn’t for everyone, but all I know is that it has given me some time & space to work out what I want from my life without having to try to “work” on my relationship with SAH. I don’t feel like I am waiting for him to get his shit sorted, my aim is to get my shit sorted!
I understand that there are children & health issues with divorce for you, but can I ask what do you get from the relationship? What makes you stay just for you?
I wish you all the best,
TanyaWas that separation crack aimed at me??? just kidding girl. I feel bad your sa treats you and your emotions as a yo yo. Where the hell does he get off doing that???? Curious what you found on your 6 mo review/snoop of his stuff. Anything juicy or entertaining? Hold your ground!! Call me!
Our Beautiful Kim,
I really can’t stand the way he messes with you, heart, soul and mind. One day he wants to divorce you, the next you are worrying about his daughter who loves you and the trauma to her of breaking up, and the next he writes a manifesto about staying. I’m not sure you can hold up under this emotional abuse and manipulation. And I’m not even suggesting it’s deliberate. This is just him. And he seems to have no sense of the toll that his words have on you. Can you really live this way?
What about suggesting Dr. Minwalla’s intensives—At least you would be safe there.
I don’t believe we should ever let these guys have the driver’s seat in the recovery/treatment/whatever process. I don’t believe they EVER know what they need to do. Their instinct is ALWAYS to protect their addiction/compulsion. They will ALWAYS choose what is best for protecting that.What is the dominant feeling in your gut right now?
lots of hugs,
D.Dear Kim,
Your husband sounds like a borderline…all that bouncing from one extreme to the other. My H does that too….and did the entire marriage. I think my H is a high functioning BPD (25% are narcs as well-oh joy) and that has to be one of the most draining types of people. If your H is anything like mine, he does actually believe what he says in the moment and the feelings that surround it. Then when they jump to the opposite extreme, they forget how they felt yesterday and they really believe what they are feeling now. I’m not sure what any partner can actually do with that sort of scenario. I know that on some level…you know you cannot count on this man and that means your world becomes uncertain and unsafe. In reading your posts, it seems that it is really ALL about him, his needs, his choices and his changing moods and of course that makes him exactly like the rest of them. He does seem to be doing the work but it doesn’t seem to be resulting in any real change in him?? If he told you, after all this time, he would never attend another step meeting if he were not married, I don’t think that is progress, Kim. 🙁 I am really sorry that you feel anxious and upset but I can certainly undertand why you feel that way. I don’t know what else you can do here…it seems you have been a loving, supportive wife and you deserve better than this. You deserve some support too. Not only do u not get it…he keeps you walking on sifting sands. I also don’t think he does it deliberately BUT that doesn’t change the impact on you. I don’t think you need a marriage intensive. I think you need sane husband who knows who he is and what he wants. All this alternating between hanging on to you and rejecting you is emotional abuse, Kim…whether he means it or not. For those here who are hoping their H’s will step up to the plate..his suggestion may seem like hearts and flowers to them? But for those of us who suspect mental illness…it is really all just part of the unfolding drama of living with someone who has no idea who they are, has no idea how to manage their emotions in a healthy way and has no idea how to be an adult partner to an adult woman. I don’t want to be my H’s mother, sex kitten, therapist or scapegoat. Do you?
With concern, Karen xKaren – whew…..you just described my SAH, too. I suspect bipolar (his father had it)….but he doesn’t seem to get the classic manic episodes – but changes like the wind. I know that his therapist called his neurologist and he’s going to do a neuro-psych. evaluation this month. How is Bi-polar or borderline personality disorder diagnosed? (MMPI?).
My SAH’s last CSAT told him that he is either a SA or has a personality disorder (or both). Or course, my SAH dismissed both. Which comes first – the personality disorder or the SA? Just curious as I see what you just described and that Kim’s husband exhibits.
Dear Kim,
I just wanted to back up the listen to behavior not words, rule. we just can’t listen to what they say. filter it out. we can listen to what they do.
btw– I totally relate to being reduced to snooping. I too, was not a checker, I trusted, I didn’t pry every corner of their life. But after D day, it came and went, my desire to investigate that is. sometimes still comes.
i don’t know what the answer is. Snoop to feel comfortable / safe? is he doing what he says he’s doing? Or perhaps monitoring wb a better word. It does seem necessary for the marriage to have a shot. ON the other hand, here we are playing mother. being a PI. hoping we don’t find, what we already think we might. oh, it’s just tons of fun…
I am no expert on this subject but because I do not buy sex addiction for my H, I eventually looked at other options. Part of the criteria for Borderlines is that they act impulsively in at least 2 areas of alcohol, drugs, shopping, sex, work ect. I recently read a good part of the book “Stop walking on eggshells- undertstanding when someone you love has BPD ” or something like that. It was a real eye opener for me as I felt they were describing my husband to the letter. I had this misconception that borderlines had to be having wild mood swings all day long and while some do…many do not or they hide their shifting emotions. The title didn’t grab me before, as I have never been an eggshell walker but I could see alot of his and my behavior in that book.I don’t know if I would have bought it if I hadn’t found a book my H bought in his suitcase last July. The title was, “I hate you, please don’t leave me-understanding borderline personality disorder” in bright red. (I think I mentioned this before on here)I almost fainted because a) he avoids all forms of introspection like the plague b) he only reads time magazine and the economist- PERIOD and c) he is so self conscious I just couldn’t imagine him walking up to a cash and buying a book like that with a bright red title. I can only assume that his fear of abandonment was extreme because of months of my refusing to talk to him and he was desperate enough to take a small peek at himself. My H is so looney that I know he is content to just be able to be in my presence…and then when he is…if I make any demands…he just wants to run away.He will happily just hang around me as long as I don’t get mad. If I get mad…he runs away BUT he always comes back. It is actually that back and forth and that pathetic. I can see that whole push, pull and dependence vs autonomy thing playing out right before my eyes. I must say it is quite scary to think another person thinks they need you that badly? It sure isn’t the kind of needing that any of us were looking for. 🙁 To answer your question Deb…I believe the personality disorder comes first. The sexual “whatever” is just a symptom of the PD. These people are major hard work and about 25% also have NPD.Their thinking is very distorted and you almost have to step into their world to really get an idea where they are coming from. It is quite sad really…that people could be SO ILL and yet remain untreated most of their lives.But the fact is many function quite well in every context EXCEPT their intimate relationships and therefore they do not seem as crazy and lost as they are. It seems that some of them were helped with medication and lots of therapy but it would be a huge leap of faith on the partner’s part. Many of the high functioning ones are like so many PD’s.They refuse to believe anything is wrong with them and just go their entire lives blaming someone else. As I said..very sad for them and the people who marry them. One thing I thought was interesting is how it is so out of sight, out of mind with them. If you are not right there….is as if they cannot remember you. Explains alot I think. I am convinced this is what is wrong with my H…if not full blown then at least many of the traits. It also explains why he DIDN’T give conventional answers on his sex addiction screening. For example…he doesn’t get nervous or edgy if he couldn’t act out and his sexual behavior did not escalate to anything different than he had done all his life. He pretty much had the same unchanging MO and female attention was a large part of it.But with my H positive attention from everyone is a very necessary ingrediant for him hence his efforts to please and impress everyone with his niceness. It is exhausting just watching him trying to meet his own ego needs. Its funny because finding a label that fit his behavior actually helped me to give up some of the terrible rage I felt towards him.Perhaps because I now had validation that he was probably more crazy than malicious. It explained why he seemed so sincere at the time…probably because he was sincere in that moment? It explains how he could just forget about me, when he was with others in MY F–king Bed!…because I don’t think I was actually there, when I wasn’t there..if you know what I mean? It explained alot for me and in a strange kind of way gave me some peace. I suppose it is simply that you can really recognize their limitations and you know there isn’t a thing you can do about it. Finding out your partner is perfectly decribed in a book about personality disorders probably validates your experience and kills any remaining hope you might have had that they could ever be anything but what they are? I actually think that is the biggest disservice given to wives of SA’s. They are given false hope about a conditiion their husband may not even have? There is every reason to believe that many of these men do suffer from PD’s and NOT a pure sexual addiction, as partners are often encouraged to accept? If the men were properly diagnosed then the wives would not be getting slammed twice by being labled themselves and sent off to make amends at a 12 step group. Partners of Borderlines are recognized as being abused. Partners of SA’s are not. This entire process is ass backwards and if it were not such a lucative cash cow then someone probably would have got the screening right by now. Anyway, thats my rant. I am happy to accept that my H is disordered and I am VERY happy that I am not driving myself insane trying to fix the wrong condition with the wrong treatment. Of course this is all just my own HUMBLE opinion girls. 😉 Karen x
Kim, it sounds like he may well be sincere. But I’m discovering that sometimes their sincerity doesn’t have a really long shelf life. I’m not saying that is the case with your h, but that it is so painful to get one’s hopes up. I keep trying to repeat to myself the mantra for SA partners, ‘Actions, not words.’ It’s hard though, because for years we’ve been used to not having to separate the two, because we’ve simply trusted. But I am hoping that your h will follow through with what really does sound like sincerity. xoxo
Karen – very interesting about BPD. I just assumed that my hubby was a SA because of his covert incest past. Hmmmmm….I have to check into BPD. Not that it really matters – as whatever it is, they are really screwed up. I know he’s a narc but was hoping that that would melt in recovery (if that ever happens).
Has knowing that your H has BPD changed how you interact with him? Protect yourself?
My SAH ruled out SA because he said that he doesn’t have daily impulses and his sponsor told him that he wasn’t a SA (of course, that could be all fiction).
Is it too much for us to expect a diagnosis?
Deb
Apparently. Depends on who’s pockets your lining I think, Deb. No, it hasn’t changed how I interact with him because I actually began changing that when I left Asia. As soon as I figured out that all that drama is what they thrive on I stopped engaging. I stopped believing. I stopped checking. I stopped hoping. Once I found out the magnitude it didn’t make sense to me to attempt to engage someone who is clearly nuts.I realized I had lived with him for most of my adult life and I had no idea what he was capable of or what was going on in his head. I realized real quick that he was dangerous and unsafe so I began to act accordingly. I also realized it was all about power and control…what he did when he thought he had it and what he does when he feels he doesn’t. I try to always make sure I don’t give him any power over me. I wore my rage like an armour for a long, long time. Sometimes, I still put it back on. But for the most part, I now try to treat him with respect and polite civility. I don’t get too deep or too close. I have little expectation of him and he has little to hurt me with anymore…unless he runs away with all the money. 😉 All that drama, power struggles and fighting was so draining and so demoralizing. I am an intelligent woman. I don’t need to be hit by a mac truck twice to get the message. All that craziness was his game. Now that I understand the game, I don’t want to play anymore. So for the most part I just don’t.
Just want to add it probably wasn’t that cut and dried a process. I know I vacillated and I was deeply traumatized by the time I got the hell out of there. I cocooned for a long time. I still do. But something shifted in me when I found out this was alot more than abit on the side (not that I am on board with that either). It is so true that you cannot unknow something and by the time I left Asia (as opposed to when I went in) I knew there was something terribly wrong with my husband.Something I would not be able to fix. When I look back…it was such a trip. Like going to Hell and back. 🙁
Dear Karen,
I am so glad you are sharing your insight about BPD. That book OMG “Walking on Eggshells” oooh! It is my H. It is my life. Only for me, I really do walk on eggshells. I never know…
The disengage and ignore rule. I mean all the drama, way too much. And it is their game. A power evand control game. And the communication–the black and white thinking, idealizing us one minute, completley tearing us a new one the next. My H does this to everyone though. not just me. I can see, it is an illness.
I did not realize that partners of BPD are considered abused. I mean I know that we are, but I didn’t realize that was considered the case. we do have it ass backward Karen. chasing a symptom, but not the underlying condition.
my h said one therapist told him he is probably a borderline. he admits to sexual addiction, but not the PD. I almost got him to a psych eval once. but he backed out.
did your H seek treatment for BPD? there is something called dialectic therepy (sp). I think it is supposed to really make progress. Plus, there are family / marriage workshops for people married to borderlines. I almost went to one once. Karen, I could never ever do this again, these past 10 years with someone w BPD. it is hell.
Ugh, remember the thread a few months Ago when we were discussing certain brain surgerys (for real) that may be effective in helping them to not “act out”.
Yikes!! I remember wanting to throw up at all that!! I remember thinking NO WAY. I remember wondering how absurd it would sound to the outside world who have no clue what we go through… And to see that we were potentially considering certain operations our partners could have so that maybe, just maybe they wouldn’t fuck other people. (spade)
I just couldn’t take the craziness anymore…. All the research, all the possibilities, all the questions, all the hurt…..
It can seriously be mind boggling!! 🙁
SL,
You have taken so much time to respond to respond to this situation. I don’t even know how to begin to respond to thank you. I hope to get the chance to do so in person on day.I am very concerned about Lynn. I feel like we have heard far too little from her.
For-now,
NOOO! I am speaking in general. I have my fingers crossed that your H wised the hell up! I just think it’s smart to remember that they are never cured! Any time for dinner before your kids get home.I never expected to find anything on the computer. He is too smart. Only once has he left evidence in there. Which was viewing of provocative facebook pics of my daughters 18yo step sister.
All I found today was a history on his phone youtube count of a video (non explicit) of a woman getting a brazilian wax. She’s cute and sounds like the experience is giving her an orgasm.
Diane,
I always love your wisdom. I want to stay, as you know, for my kids. I also planned on going back to school next year on his dime and want that stability for my future. It’s more of a refresher course on such drastic software changes in my field. I’ve never had anyone ask about my credentials… decisions were based on portfolio.You are correct… my emotional status seems to be teetering. I’ve been surviving on xanax. I keep saying I am going to seek my OWN therapist. I need to actually DO it.
I will research Dr. Minwalla.
Karen,
I’m pretty well versed in bipolar v borderline. Borderline bounces around more often. Bipolar tends to have more prolonged period between switches. Also bipolar responds to drugs better. His psychiatrist felt that if he was bipolar that he is pretty steady with long term periods of depressions and short bursts of mania. He has agreed to try to switch his current anxiety meds and antidepressants to more common bipolar therapy to see if it helps. My H’s mother and two biological sisters are diagnosed bipolar.I know someone married to a borderline. Her life is nothing short of crazy. She has the eggshells book. What I find ironic is that she is my exhusbands now exwife. When they were married we all had extensive psychological evaluations during a custody battle and the psychologist felt SHE was borderline.
My H also had extensive psych evals during he own custody battle. I plan to dig out the papers and read them with a more unbiased mind. Both bipolar and borderline have common multiple addicts, self medicating and sexual problems.
Pam,
He is probably both. My H tells me, “sometimes I’m an addict and other times you say I’m as asshole. It’s confusing.” I told him, “You’re both!”
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