- This topic has 33 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hi, I’m new to the group and would like to say how good it feels to get so many warm welcomes and sad at the same time due to others going through this trauma. I will post my story later because I need some help regarding today. I will give a brief summary,
My SAH and I have been together for 12 years, married 8. D-day was February 2011 after I was informed that I had a STD.
Im giving our marriage every effort possible but Im very confused now. We have a marriage counseling session today to work on a honesty agreement because my h withholds information from about his addiction. The therapist gave us a generic honesty agreement and my husband has spent 2 weeks tweaking it to his satisfaction. This is what he gave me.DEFINITIONS
SLIP – Inner circle activity or behavior promptly stopped and admitted within honesty agreement time frames, followed by a recommitment to Recovery with shored up, increased program activity as recommended by Therapist, Sponsor, and Group.
RELAPSE – Slip and then stay slipped. Continue the slipped behavior or lie about it, and/or do not promptly admit to Therapist, Sponsor, Group, or to Teneil within honesty agreement time frames. Or any single physical sexual act, or single actionable step towards a physical sexual act, with anyone outside my marriage to Teneil.
PORN – Any media source, location, object or paraphernalia used for sexual stimuli; magazine, video, phone, web, chat, book, email, text, mail, classifieds, ads, signs, newspaper, clubs, parlors, bars, neighborhoods, stores, toys, clothing, condoms, lotions, lubricants… etc
INNER CIRCLE BEHAVIORS – As follows:
Any physical sexual act with anyone outside my marriage to Teneil
An actionable step towards a physical sexual act with anyone outside my marriage to Teneil
Any access, or attempt to access, porn, sexual toys, female clothing
Any masturbation to porn, or with sexual toys or female clothing.
Any compulsive masturbation, twice in one day, or more than once in two days.
Any sexual activity with Teneil that is non-consenting.ACCOUNTABILITY – Commitment to do the following:
Attend weekly Group or 12-step meetings
Attend weekly individual and marriage therapy sessions.
Check in daily with Teneil.
Check in three times a week with Sponsor (or Group member).
Communicate to Teneil where I am and whom I am with.
Provide open access to financial accounts (ckg, svgs, cc, retire, etc)
Document an annual timeline summary of Recovery, noting slips, relapses, learnings and milestones. Present to Therapist, Sponsor and Teneil every Dec.
ACCOUNTABILITY AND HONESTY AGREEMENT
Date: ________
In order to increase trust in our relationship, we ____________________ and _______________________ agree to the following:
I _______________________ agree to disclose and talk about any SLIP, RELAPSE, or ACCOUNTABILITY failure that impacts my sobriety within the following time frames:
Within 24 hours to my Sponsor (or a fellow group member)
At next appointment time to my Therapist
At next share meeting to my Group (therapy or 12-step)I agree to disclose and talk about any RELAPSE or ACCOUNTABILITY failure that impacts my sobriety to Teneil within 24 hours, OR after having made contact with my Therapist and/or Sponsor (or a fellow Group member). Some disclosures may wait until they can be handled with help from our marriage therapist.
I give permission for the treatment team at ITC to contact my individual Therapist at any time, and if I am unable to meet the obligations of this accountability and honesty agreement, I give permission to the ITC team to reveal information to Teneil for the purpose of facilitating integrity or meet the goals of Recovery. If it is recommended and will help, I agree to do a professionally administered polygraph test at any time.
_________________________ __________________________
Rob Teneil
_________________________ _________________________
Joe (Rob’s Sponsor) Neli (Rob’s Therapist)
_________________________ __________________________
Sherry (Teneil’s Therapist)
CONSIDERATIONS GOING FORWARDTo further advance the recovery of our marriage I would like consideration to work toward doing the following:
Attend couples RCA or Celebrate Recovery programs. Solicit and work with a Sponsor couple.
Learn to do REAL daily check-ins, feelings check-ins, practice and develop skillful talking boundaries. No blame game. Dont argue data. Be kind, patient, respectful, curious.
Learn how and be willing to call-out, and be called-out (thicken up or ‘skins’), while keeping the kindness, patience, respect, curiosity.
Work EQUALLY on all four intamicies: Emotional, Intellectual, Physical, Sexual.
Teneil work on developing a similar written agreement of disclosure accountability and timeline.
We wear our wedding rings as symbol of commitment as we work on our marriage.
Plan a couples retreat weekend sometime in the future if recommended.Many things about this make me crazy…
He also left this on the computer for me to find which is a history of slips/relapses that of course hes mostly lied about.
I’m so confused. If only we were married for 10+ years. Only 2 years to go to 10 though. I am in a very financially dependent relationship with him due to my medical problems and 2 kids. In the beginning of his “recovery” I had alot of hope but now I don’t know if I can live like this anymore 🙁
Anyways, here is the relapses and slips I found. I guess he plans on giving this to me today in therapy and I don’t know how to respond to any of this. I’ve been diagnosed with complex PTSD and have a hard time making boundaries because when I do, I get him saying the whole “you’re trying to control my recovery” Ugh. What is the point of only telling me once a year “some” things and what he learned? Shouldn’t he already know not to continue to hurt me?RECOVERY BEGINS 3/6/2011 at Meadows – disclosure, timeline, 1st step work, recovery circles, therapy, 5 core issues, carried shame, addiction nuero-pathways, 12-step, Pia, Carnes, Teneil at family week and Survivors…
4/11 – Started attending 12-step and ITC group
6/11 – Return to Meadows with all 5 children – week of family therapy -Clint
7/11 – SLIP – Cruise – sex with Teneil that was non-consenting
8/11 – Presented 1st Step to 12 step group, started seeing individual Therapist
9/11 – SOBRIETY for 6 months9/11 – RELAPSE – MB minimizing, not admit, lied, denied
10/11 – Meadows Alumni re-union in Dallas
10/11 – RELAPSE – MB lies, made up stories, Teneil’s panties, attempt phone sex
11/11 – RELAPSE – female clothes, hotel, lied, made up stories. Teneil’s BD
11/11 – IN RELAPSE for 2 monthsLEARNING: Starts as Minimize MB, to Lies about MB, then to Story-type
Lies that lead to Denial, Escape with a Loss of Time and Priority.12/12 – Affirmation recordings. Start to make fellowship calls.
1/12 – Started school, found Sponsor, working Step 2, stopped ITC
3/12 – SLIP -Teneil travel. Found her vib used it to MB tub. Admitted it.
4/12 – SOBRIETY for 4 months4/12 – RELAPSE – Teneil travel. Panties and used vib again. Admitted it.
5/12 – RELAPSE – Valero travel SA – bought female clothes MB
5/12 – IN RELAPSE for 1 monthLEARNING: Vulnerable to Travel and Opportunities to Isolate and Escape. Need to plan for vulnerable times, reach out more (do step3)
7/12 – Working step 2 and 3, reaching out, calling Sponser daily
8/12 – Tried to move MB to inner circle – SLIP over and over again, < 2wks
9/12 – Therapist and Sponsor help – Recovery boundary: solid recovery, MB record
10/12 – SLIP – caught MB in shower, lie/story but then quickly admit, 3 wk Separation
10/12 – SOBRIETY for 5 months
10/12 – SLIP – Porn video hotel room TV while traveling, in Separation. But promptly stopped, and admitted to Therapist, Sponser, Group.
10/12 – IN RELAPSE a few hours (calling it a relapse, but with new definition its a slip)LEARNING: Vulnerable to Travel again, Separation is Lonely. Need Clarity and Structure, how to communicate with Teneil. Continue to reach out, believe in step 2, and really do step 3.
10/12 – More 12step Vallejo and San Ramon, reach out increases, step 2/3 work
11/12 – Clarity on SLIP and RELAPSE definition at J Bishop presentation
11/12 – New marriage therapist, Agreement and post-recovery Timeline work
11/12 – Travel trip sobriety achieved. Believe in step 2, Surrender to step 3.
12/12 – SOBRIETY at 5+ weeks (12/4/12)Oh sweetie. This makes my head hurt. Do you want to stay married? It sounds like you’re just trying to get to 10 years for divorce purposes. If that’s how you feel, why waste 2 more years? Find a good lawyer now and get a decent settlement and alimony. Easy for me to say — and considering my state of mind at the moment, you should probably ignore my advice — but this just struck me as inane.
Are you in the military and is this why you are waiting to get to 10 yrs – to get half of his pention?
You know I’m not gonna say stay or go and no one else should, that is for you. You are desperate for answers, we all are sweets. It’s a lot there, I don’t get it, did he actually have sex with anyone or not, I can’t find it. A lot of masturbation, that’s what men do, not sure if that should be a restriction but if you want it to be fine. So he masturbates with panties and womens clothing? What specifically is he doing, spell it out for dotes like me..what are you wanting. Can you wait foe better settlement? Then wait for it. Can you talk with ohm 2 or 3 hours a day? It may take that. All sa’s need a lot of work. That’s the addiction. Talk to us in plain speak, or at least me. Keep posting. Also, if you need to stay you need to stay. I’m there too. If you don’t want to have sex don’t. Be roommates for 2 years. If you want more than just roommates you are gonna have to put in the hours…talk, write with him, talk more…it’s a lot of work, but those who don’t put in the effort get nothing back whether you have an sa or an aa or a supposed great guy, ya, Ive heard that one before….guys are guys…some hide their true colors, others just have different colors.
I have to agree with SP. Is there a reason you want to keep trying? The concept of an Honesty Agreement with someone whose history is rife with lies completely baffles me. It does sound like maybe there’s a financial reason to stick it out until Year 10??
I have a lot of spelling errors , stupid iPad, hate it, my lap top is broke, sorry about all the errors, I can’t fix them once I post the comment
“Work EQUALLY on all four intamicies: Emotional, Intellectual, Physical, Sexual.
Teneil work on developing a similar written agreement of disclosure accountability and timeline.”Out of all that , this is what I don’t understand. What have you not been honest about? Were you cheating on him too? Why is he the sex addict and you have to work EQUALLY on blah blah blah? You aren’t in kindergarten….
Any way…sorry, but I wouldn’t sign shit having to do with an honesty agreement with a liar.
When he shows you he can be honest then we will talk. I get the feeling you are being played dear BH. I am sorry you are financially dependent on him and maybe you are trying to get in the ten years for a good reason. …
I notice that you say he is accusing you of trying to manage his “recovery”. I would tell him he is on his own. I wouldn’t go near any of that recovery bullshit double talk. What husband and wife talks like that?
I am not trying to be harsh. I am also not telling you to just leave him. I am only pointing out what I believe to be manipulations on his part. If you need to stay with him then I support you. I just hear the pain and panic in your voice trying to deal with all this mess that HE created.
You have health problems and young kids. That should be your focus. Not him masturbating to panties and vibrators.
Sorry, if I sound mean. I’m really not that bad. Cancel the stupid marriage counseling session and tell him you have decided that you are done. Or pretend you are sick and buy some time so you can sort thru that whole thing….
I’m running out the door right now but agree my posts was very choppy… I’m a mess. I realized I didn’t put much background.
H has been seeing prostitutes, trans and god knows what since before we were married and our entire marriage until last year, along with pretty much everything else a SA could do. He goes to SAA and has a sponsor and ind therapist that doesn’t specialize in SA. It feels like these write ups are just another way of trying to control my reality which is probably easy to do since I’m not sure of myself. I read the article about gas lighting and that hits a chord with me regarding h behaviors and emotional intimacy or lack there of.
I’m having a lot of anxiety around the meeting today.
Well I gotta go but I’ll check in later. Thanks for the understandingIt’s sad this is the lengthy version of the marriage certificates we sign when we marry.
A grown man needing to sign papers saying he will leave your panties alone, is that really a man?
We all do what makes us feel better. I hope he can follow the list. What happens if he keeps blowing it?
Ok, good, now we have a good post, bh. A regular therapist won’t cut it for either of you. If he is still having sex with others, no sex with you. If no sex with others and no stds, then the sex is up to you, of course. Trans are a different case altogether it’s sex with men and really does cross another line of how strong the addiction is with him.
Does not mean no hope, though there is a very small minority where there is no hope. Sounds to me marriage counseling should be put on hold. I suggest your sa goes to an intensive, I hope you can find the money. One week is supposedly almost a year of counseling, they are that valuable. Keep posting. He needs a lot of work. If you are dependent upon him, sick, with kids, then you must buckle down and do the hardest of all work. If you decide to leave, then no work is necessary. Keep posting. You will get a lot of the same advice here: leave, divorce, separate, kick him out…that’s why I probably won’t last long here..I never last long on coping with infidelity sites or support sites, because I’m a different breed…I won’t be telling you to do that.I don’t get on that train. But keep posting and good luck, we all need it.It sounds like you are going to be put through hell with all this- daily checkins, working equally on blah blah blah, couples program, couples retreat, work with sponsor couple… My goodness, it sounds like every spare moment is going to be a recovery program.
He may need/want to do all that for him, but what do you want for you?
BH – did he stick with ITC? I’ve been there (used to ilve in Marin and drove all the way to Walnut Creek). They seem to know what they are doing there. Why doesn’t he go there for therapy? There are two things they need to work on: their compulsion/addiction and the underlying childhood trauma that caused it. Is he doing both of those things?
Sounds like he has the “live” stuff under control which is good. I don’t see why everyone says you should dump him if he’s making progress. MB is usually the last thing to go. I see someone who is working and making progress – but maybe I’m missing something that other sisters saw?
I agree to stop the marriage therapy – unless it’s for communication about his recovery.
I actually think the contract is a good idea for you….I like that there is a definition of what is a slip and a relapse (although both are bad in my book)…are there consequences for these? (I couldn’t see any).
I keep asking my SAH what is in his inner circle….as he went back to see an older bank teller and he said that was a “middle circle” behavior. Hmmmmm…..
At any rate – we are here to listen. Just don’t lose control and be sure to throw the bullshit flag when they say that you should stay on your side of the street (that’s a Carnes thing). That’s fine for neighbors – but not for partners of SAs (a Minwalla quote).
Deb
I don’t think she should dump him because he masturbates. I think she is in a tizzy and being stressed out by all the legal contract from the counselor stuff. Therapy should be helping her not confusing her. He doesn’t seem to be helping. Seems he is doing a lot of blaming her.
I’m still with my H and I am not telling anyone to leave unless they want to. I don’t believe you are doing them any favors by coddling them and not letting them understand the fact that they have created a LOT of damage. Even alcoholics are called upon to take responsibility and try to make amends and avoid blame shifting…..
Far be it from me to judge anything an SA is doing b/c mine has done his share of yuck but this struck out to me as so very scary:
“7/11 – SLIP – Cruise – sex with Teneil that was non-consenting”
Is that rape? Or am I misreading that?
I find what you are being asked to do is repugnant.
You don’t have to sign anything. You kept your vows. You are not the problem. Your vows are intact. His are broken. You are already accountable and have lived in way that show you recognize that. He hasnt. They are just trying to pretend that you are part of this problem. You are not. We already know you keep the promises. He doesn’t. I wouldn’t sign anything. No marriage counseling until he is sober. I don’t get why you take any risks here. When he’s sober then you can talk about basic things to strengthen a marriage. But they are treating this as if you have contributed equally to this crisis. You haven’t. This mess is HIS mess. When he cleans THIS mess up and presents as a normal human being then you can talk about normal issues together.
Look at the life described in those documents. It’s hideous. Who wants to spend their days living their addicut husband recovery and taking on responsibility for it. I just can’t stand how these people create codependence with their treatment. It’s SICK SICK SICK.
IMO.Yeah, the nonconsentual sex. It’s called rape. These people are diminishing his behaviour for him. They are codependent, not you.
I’m depressed reading this. I’m so sorry. It sounds so horrible. All those check ins and what not. Maybe you should write a list of the things you want. You don’t even have to show it to anyone. Just a list of what you really want.
Excellent advice!
I agree with Last STraw (Stephanie). Make your own damn list of the life you want.
Not the life he or his therapists want you to live!!!!!!Gee, Im confused about why you think you are a “different breed”? Or why you think you’re in danger on this site? I think the point of this site and posting here is for each woman to share whatever she wants to share and voice her own opinion, and that applies equally to you and everybody else. An example would be COSA, I’m fairly new, haven’t tried it , don’t know if I will, but I like to read the differing experiences and opinions about it. I see self examination everywhere in these pages, it’s all I did for the first 4 months, and I am just starting to address other things I need to think about and look at, too, and that includes my husband and his issues and how they affect me. If your point is that the women here aren’t looking enough at ourselves,I respectfully would throw out my opinion that we each get to do whatever we can do, what ever we want to do, and that we may never do what another woman on the site thinks we should be doing or get to a place someone else thinks we should be. I can only speak for myself, but I am finding it very liberating to finally start thinking and speaking for myself,it’s been a long time coming and I think I will get where I need to be eventually. I’m pretty sure Ill make a lot of mistakes before then, and beat myself up for each one of them, because that’s what I do. And i pray that everyone else finds a way to get what they need, too. Welcome, Gee, and i welcome your opinions and your thoughts and your ideas.
Courtney I loved everything you said but please don’t beat yourself too much for mistakes!!! You are doing awesome.
I agree with Diane. The whole thing really doesn’t set well with me. The further considerations stuff especially.
And Courtney, that is exactly what I love about SOS- so many voices, so many experiences.
Bhearted- please let us know about the nonconsensual sex. I am worried about that for you. But thank you, thank you for sharing that document with us. It takes a lot of courage to put it all out there like that. It is a dose of reality of life married to an SA. I mean, whoever thought on their wedding day they’d be facing that down the road. Is this really what it comes down to?
I don’t think you should sign anything you don’t feel comfortable signing. If your gut is telling you “No” then don’t. I think if there’s anything we should do after we learn about our partner’s SA, is learn to trust our instincts.
Hi all. To first answer the nonconsensual sex, I believe that’s definition for if we’re drinking so he doesn’t take advantage.
Got through a blur of therapy. He gave me his list of behaviors. Before he did I brought up his lying about porn. He scooted around it and just gave me the list. I didn’t sign and I’m confused as ever. One good thing came though, the therapist called him out in his bullying and devaluing me.
I love this site because I was a member of a group but this is 24/7. Thanks to all for very considerate opinions. Ill keep you updated
For me, leaving was incredibly hard work.
I had to believe in myself and remember who I was before the joy was sucked out of my life. I was terrified. I had to sell a house in a bad market, and buy another one by myself. I had to negotiate a separation settlement, battle PTSD in a job that required me to stand up and lead worship and preach every single week no matter how I felt or what state I was in. I had to deal with two sons and sharing these decisions with them and supporting them. I had to do tons and tons of administrative things that underlined the failure of my marriage. I had to refinance and figure out how to live on one minister’s stipend with two kids in university. I had to deal with my own constant grief and the shock of waking up everyday in a life I never saw coming and didn’t choose. I lost my partner in life. The possibility of retiring at age 65 is gone forever. I had to find a car. I was going to therapy and trying to put myself back together. I had to choose life many many times a day, because death seemed a better end at times. I had to create a support and accountability network of people to help me find my way. I had to face a congregation honestly in my failed marriage, when some believed I was a big disappointment. I had to trust that my life was worth living and that I had something bring to life even though I could hardly get up in the morning. I had to be courageous and step out again into life, participating in it, meeting people, going places by myself and planning a whole life by myself with this great open wound of loss, betrayal, disorientation and sorrow. It meant choosing grace when I had no sense of it in myself. It meant educating myself on this whole topic and thinking critically about what was real and what was not. It meant standing up to the abuse of treatment models and their practitioners. It mean staying on this site because I had learned quite a bit and had something to offer others and would make the effort to do so. Leaving called forth more courage and required more work than anything I have ever done—and I pushed out two babies who weighed nearly ten pounds each!
I have to disagree with you Gee. Leaving was and still remains incredibly hard work.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.