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July 13, 2012 at 2:32 pm #5166AnonymousInactive
Trying not to make this long, but I desperately need perspective.
I don’t know if I am just refusing to forgive and let my marriage heal or if things are just so well hidden from me that I’m battling accepting the truth. So many of you are enduring such blatant infidelity and open betrayal from the one person in your life who vowed to treasure you for the rest of his days. I see transparency and strength among the sisters who share the stories of their lives here day after day and long to have the full clarity of my situation that you have in yours. Please help me find that same clarity in mine, because I live somewhere between lost and found every day.
My husband is either honestly living a life of integrity and I am too scared to accept it or he is so far underground in his cheating that I can’t see it. I wish I could say with confidence my gut tells me it’s the latter, but I am so confused I don’t know that I have enough silence inside to even tell my gut from my logic from my fear.
If he has really left the cheating and lying behind and I allow my fear to keep me at a distance, I am killing any possibility of a re-built marriage. That is NOT what I want to do.
His addiction has for 20 years been centered primarily around compulsive masturbation and porn. After disclosure and a polygraph, all indications are 1 short term affair 10 years ago that began in an online flying game and culminated in a weekend of sex that didn’t live up to his fantasy and he abandoned (I spoke with the woman who was very bitter over being used by him and more than willing to tell me everything – all of which supported his story), 1 time 9 years ago of allowing another man to give him oral sex in the backroom of an adult bookstore, a one-sided emotional affair with a woman at work with whom nothing happened beyond what he experienced through fantasy sex and she never knew, and continual lusting that he continues to battle, but swears he is overcoming.
At the time I found out about these things (which I only know because husband reluctantly told me – I never discovered anything on my own. I did supect an affair because of the ununusal way he kissed me after returning home from a business trip years ago which he steadfastly denied…this turned out to be the affair he admitted to). In the few months preceeding his admitting all this to me, his behavior had begun to escalate to seeking couples and other men while on business trips for experimentation in real life of what the porn had stopped effectively satisfying for him. The polygraph verified nothing ever came of it beyond the posts he wrote. He gave me his online user name and two message boards where he posted where I read those posts and another post regarding planning the details of taking nude pictures of me while I slept to share in a thread where other men were sharing similar pictures of their wives – the thrill for these men being that the wives had no idea this was being done. He swears he never followed through with the idea and, again, passed the polygraph regarding it.
Horrific to me as all of this has been, I know it pales in comparison to what many of you experience in your sa’s behaviors.
Our CSAT is reputable and frequently reassures me that my husband is one of the few who is well into recovery and doing very well. Aside from masturbating once, the concensus seems to be that this is the only occasion of my husband acting out since February of this year and has not indulged in porn or anything else since last October.
This should be good news that gives me hope and comfort, right? Yet, something feels so “off” to me. He appears to be very connected when we have sex, yet something feels almost pretentious to me in the way he behaves. I can’t put my finger on exactly why, so I question whether it’s nothing more than my fear rearing it’s ugly head. Communication about any of this causes him to completely withdraw into himself or react with anger that I won’t “let the past be the past and just move forward”.)
How do I know what to believe? Would this be enough for you to embrace? Is there something wrong with me that I can’t?
I feel so vulnerable and don’t fully trust anything he tells me. This isn’t who I used to be. Yet it seems to be spreading like cancer in that I don’t feel comfortable trusting anyone who can hurt me – even people who have never given me cause not to trust them. I can’t re-engage in life no matter how I try.
Please help me figure this out so I can start to move in life again. I want to divorce. I want to make my marriage work. I want to trust. I want to know what reality looks like. I want…
Please forgive the typos that are probably in here. I feel so whiny and lame that I’m afraid if I go back and prrofread this, I’ll end up deleting it like I have so many posts I’ve typed out over the months I’ve been here.
July 13, 2012 at 3:05 pm #43412AnonymousInactiveAfter I posted this, I realized what would have been more articulate would be to share my husband’s written disclosure that he read to me a month ago when our therapist and his polygrapher met with us to do the “formal disclosure”. Again, it’s long and I’m sorry to be such a board hog. But I feel so fucked up. So confused and lost as what my life really is today.
Here is the disclosure that the polygraph confirmed as true:Disclosure – May June 2012
I’m choosing to disclose everything to you because I love you and haven’t been completely honest with you and there will not be intimacy without complete honesty. After almost seven months since I first confessed my unfaithfulness, I am going to take responsibility for my past infidelity. You deserve to have accurate and complete information about the ways I’ve betrayed you and our relationship.
My desire is to share all the ways I’ve acted out my sexual addiction beginning with the different categories of behavior I’ve engaged in: masturbation, pornographic magazines, internet pornographic videos, adult bookstore videos, strip clubs, lust/fantasy, objectifying women, and having affairs.
I will give you a timeline of events that I denied ever occurred over the past 25 years which caused you to question your sanity and your gut instincts.
1986 – 2012: Throughout our entire relationship I’ve masturbated nearly every day in the shower. The magazines and videos I’ve viewed, the women I’ve objectified in print, video or real life, and even our own sexual relations, have provided the stimulus needed during masturbation. This behavior started before our marriage, dating back to my teenage years, and escalated with the advent of the internet.
1988: During our honeymoon consummation, I found myself acting out fantasy sex positions and even demonstrating exhibitionism in front of the open window as we made love.
1988 – 1998: I kept pornographic magazines hidden in the bathroom for masturbation and did not throw them away as you had asked until sometime after moving to Summit Ridge. On business travel to California, I would sometimes purchase a pornographic magazine, but would not take it home.
1990 – 2000: On two occasions, purchased in-room porn movies and even though the movie titles didn’t show on the room invoice, this activity was too visible on expense reports to repeat this activity.
1994 – 2011: Internet pornography began sometime we bought our first computer. Masturbation to internet video would sometimes occur during the day while at home and most often in the late evening before bed at the conclusion of online flying. My obsession with the online flying game turned into an addiction of its own and when coupled with my obsession with work, resulted in avoidance of time spent building a relationship with you and our girls. The isolating behavior at home turned my attention to furthering my self-serving sexual needs during the evenings at the conclusion of gaming when I should have been spending it with you or getting a good night’s sleep. The early internet pornography was limited to viewing and downloading pictures to disc or a CD. I destroyed these discs a couple of times but would be drawn back to the pornography and start collecting images again. During business travel to Seattle (2004-2005), I would masturbate to internet pictures downloaded on our home computer to a flash drive and would view them offline on the company-issued laptop. Starting in 2006-2007, pictures downloaded from the home computer were replaced with short video clips that were stored on a flash drive. Later the video clips were replaced with streaming internet video using the home computer and the flash drive images were deleted. I never kept pornographic images or videos on the either the home computer or work laptop and no longer kept any pornographic files after discovering streaming video (redtube). After discovering the safe browsing feature would not leave internet history or cookies, I began using the company-issued laptop during business trips to view streaming video. As I look back at the risk I exposed not just myself to, but our family’s well-being, is wantonly irresponsible due to the serious consequences of acting out on company equipment. Had I been caught, the potential impact to our family’s financial well-being and even the ensuing social stigma would have been devastating. The downloaded video clips were obtained from one website (tiava) that included a message board where people would post amateur pornographic images. I would eventually begin posting comments about the amateur pornographic images of other peoples wives and girlfriends and even considered taking pictures of you without your consent and posting – I never went so far as to actually do this and as you know, I did plot how to. Later I posted when and where I would be traveling to see if any couples were interested. While I never received any responses on this website, I did start viewing craigslist personal ads to fantasize about the people posting looking for sex in the areas I was traveling. While my website activity was limited primarily to tiava (later changed to kellyschat) and redtube, I did occasionally click on links to other websites to explore what was there and some required email addresses to gain entrance, but none provided the variety offered by tiava and redtube. I never signed up for any website that required a credit card although several would membership-only sites included preview images/videos. The pornography that I viewed contained heterosexual, lesbian, homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, bondage, S&M, and group sex between consenting adults – never anyone under legal age that I was aware of.
1994 – 2012: Aside from the gmail & bellsouth email accounts, I had set up several email accounts and passwords for the express purpose of gaining access to porn websites, dating sites, etc. These accounts were frequently forgotten about as they pertained to single porn viewing sessions when the sites I frequented the most became boring. Any contact with people using these accounts would have been minimal.
1990 – 2002: My frequent business contact with the Procurement and Contract departments included objectifying and lusting after several women. Although I never spoke sexually or made any advances physically towards any of women, I would fantasize about them during meetings. On one occasion, I traveled to Long Beach with one lady from Contracts which I kept from you initially. I did not physically or verbally solicit sex from her; instead I fantasized and objectified her during the trip.
2000 – 2001: The year is unclear, but I engaged in an emotional affair over a six month period which culminated in a physical affair one weekend in Ohio, I think in the month of May. During this period, I was unhappy with our sex life, your recovery period from sending Ryan to live with his father, and your weight gain – all of these were my problem that I chose not to address. Instead of turning to you to voice my concerns and desires, I turned to another. The following is my recollection of events that occurred and may differ from what you heard firsthand from the woman herself. While flying with the spouse of a squad member, the online chat that started innocently turned flirtatious. Eventually, we would meet online for private discussions commiserating about our marital problems. An emotional bond began to develop which led to sexual talk and masturbation. Contact shifted from the home computer to conversations during working hours and lunch time. We traded non-sexual photos of each other initially, but soon followed with soft porn photos via US mail and later photos of me ejaculating using a digital camera from work. I avoided using my work email although some non-sexual emails were sent/received (again I put at risk my job without considering the potential financial implications to our family’s security). We continued our contact using the shared images to fantasize and masturbate to during work hours – I would leave work and drive to a nearby park and talk with her on the phone. While I was being emotionally satisfied by the response I received from this woman, I was also giving her the same satisfaction – words of affection and lust which fed the fantasy affair. I had no intention of leaving my wife and kids although I led her to believe that if only I could. I knew that I could not turn my back on my children and wife especially not based on a phone affair and a few pictures. The affair ended shortly after she met me at an airshow the weekend following a business trip to Dayton. I met her at the airport and we drove separate cars to a restaurant to have a couple of drinks. We then decided to go to my room and engaged in unprotected sex, both orally and vaginally, that Friday evening. At one point, you called my phone and I stepped out to talk to you before bed. Afterwards, I continued to have sex with the woman. I believe we had sex again Saturday morning but I was beginning to feel guilty. We went to the Dayton air show and returned in the afternoon to the hotel and continued to engage in sexual activity although my fantasy had clearly diminished and I should have decided to call it quits then as I knew I had no emotional feelings for her, only for her body. I continued to have sex with her through Sunday morning thinking the fantasy feeling would return, but it didn’t. We parted ways at the airport and had continued contact by phone/email for about a month when I told her that I could never leave my wife and kids. I received an email from her about a month later that I did not respond to. I have had no contact with her since. I know that your conversation with her revealed more than what I’ve stated here and that I discussed your physical appearance and compared you sexually against her and I am truly sorrow for disrespecting you in this manner. I fear that she may have overstated the affair and my intentions as I used her for my own sexual satisfaction.
2011-2012: At my work place, I began a one-sided emotional affair with a female coworker. One-sided in that I did not engage in any sexual conversation or flirtation, but the private conversations about personnel and senior management behind closed doors were inappropriate. This familiarly would manifest over time as I began to feel important and catered to which led me to begin to objectify her and ultimately fantasize about her as I would follow her up a flight of stairs or objectify her across the conference table. She did observe me staring at her chest in her office once as I was standing over her looking at a document on her computer, but she did not reprimand me although I was embarrassed that I had been caught looking. One time I did touch her arm to get her attention in the company of coworkers, but this was brief contact of a non-sexual manner and resulted in nothing on her part other than to interrupt her conversation – it was also unnecessary physical contact that I know now was an attempt at enticing a sexual feeling within myself (which didn’t manifest). Upon reading about the characteristics of an emotional affair, I was shocked to find that I had engaged in one – This revelation would explain my behavior when you and Meredith came to my office unexpected one day. I felt guilty because of the emotional affair I was having in my head; having fantasized and previously objectifying her, your physical presence had intruded on my secret and I could not hide my discomfort. After recognizing my behavior and the seriousness of an emotional affair, even a one-sided one, I immediately ceased all contact with her of a non-business manner. I avoided her whenever I could. Encounters with her in the hallways or passing by her office area would be polite and professional, but not personal. She has noticed the distance but has not inquired why which is good. I realize the threat of an emotional affair and have absolutely no desire to pursue having an affair with her and I continue to avoid her even today. The incident one Monday morning wherein I left your side as we were walking out to lunch and leaned into the office where she and another woman were is baffling to me still today. I am uncertain what my motives were – spite, as Richard mentioned, supports my self-serving need to confirm what she was wearing as I wanted to prove to myself I didn’t know what she was wearing. This was the first time I sought her out since ceasing contact with her on a daily basis – this was hurtful and unnecessary behavior on my part as it destroyed the trust I had rebuilt with you regarding the emotional affair.
2000 – 2001: During the same time period as the affair (I think after), I visited the adult bookstore in Dallas we had went to once before we married and soon began taking an early lunch break once, maybe twice a week as work had slowed down. First to look at the images on the video boxes but later I would spend $5-10 I had saved up and masturbate to videos in the private rooms. One time I allowed a man to enter my room and perform unprotected oral sex on me. I did not reciprocate and left immediately afterwards regretful of what I had done. I had also visited another bookstore in Louisiana when driving alone to visit my parents. I would view $5 worth of pornography and masturbate, then continue on my trip. I did not involve anyone else during this activity.
2000 – 2002: During a business trip to Florida, I visited an adult bookstore twice to watch pornographic videos in a semi-private booth. I did not masturbate because the booths were not enclosed, but did masturbate until my return to the hotel room.
2000 – 2002: I would occasionally visit an adult bookstore in Fort Worth next to the liquor store we frequented. Here I would view the covers of videos and looked at the sex toys for sale, but they did not have video booths.
2000 – 2002: During trips to Louisiana to visit my parents, there was an adult bookstore off the interstate that I would occasionally stop at to view pornographic videos and masturbate.
2002 – 2003: On two occasions while traveling alone to Georgia, I stopped at a topless club for lunch and watched the topless dancers before going into work. This was one of the few times I had to spend more than I wanted to due to $10-20 cover charge to gain entrance. I did not spent any money on the dancers, but did spend time in the adult bookstore portion looking at the different sex toys and videos.
2008 – 2012: I have googled old high school girlfriends and wondered about how my life would have been different had I married one of them. I have never attempted to contact any of them and there was minimal, if any, sexual fantasy thoughts about them.
1986 – 2012: I brought into our marriage my habit of objectifying and lustful looking at women. Until recognizing this activity was sinful, I did not consider it adultery – only something men do that their wives do not like, but I knew it was still wrong and continued to do it anyway. It didn’t matter if the women were attractive or not or if her body was well defined or not, friend, family, or stranger, I would fantasize about their body. I believe I am winning the battle against this tendency to look and I recognize when I am doing it and stop, but it is a weakness that I must continue to overcome.
The financial impact to our family has been minimal and I would estimate I’ve spent only $200 on adult bookstore video booths. I used only cash I had saved up and never used our credit cards to purchase anything online or in bookstores. The potential impact to our family could have jeopardized our family’s well-being and our children’s education.
The emotional and spiritual impact to you and our family was more costly than the dollars spent on videos. I neglected to develop relationships with our children and build intimacy with you. I was often quick to anger, irritable, and did not communicate my feelings. Furthermore, I did not provide any spiritual leadership for our girls or us, relying on the church and you to teach our children.
In close, I hope I have not omitted anything that we may have discussed over the last seven months. I am truly repentant for my sins against you and I desire your forgiveness when you are ready to extend it. I want to have an honest, open relationship with you that include no lies or secrets. I believe I can be the man you thought you had married – perhaps a different man, one who loves you and does not forsake you by lusting after others. As our therapist has explained, I don’t yet fully comprehend how much my addiction has hurt you, but I want to understand and hope our recent conversations offer evidence of progress. As I am responsible for your pain, I owe it to you to help you through it as you have helped me find sobriety from the addiction.
We have spoken frequently of our shared desire to preserve our marriage, to learn to love and respect each other again, and to help each other become the very best of ourselves. It pains me to think that I squandered the previous years of our marriage – I really blew it and am truly remorseful for having done so. I do love you and am ready to begin the next phase of our life as two individuals who have joined together as one. With your help, I can continue grow in my faith and I hope that I can become the man you deserve to have by doing so. God put us together for a reason and it is my responsibility to lead us through the good and bad times, trusting in Him along the way.
Sincerely,
Your husband ****July 13, 2012 at 3:22 pm #43413marchParticipant“…I live somewhere between lost and found every day.”
How well I know this feeling. And I too (How many of us, really?) have heard the whole ‘why-can’t-you-just-move-past-it’ bullshit, which to me IS the biggest indicator he is NOT really in recovery. SOBRIETY, in this case, is beside the point. RECOVERY includes feeling and showing some humility–and compassion for those you’ve hurt. It’s being infinitely patient with your victims as they heal from the damage. It is walking beside your wife as she walks the long road of her OWN recovery. It’s holding her hand and assuring her she can do it and that you will help.
I forgave my h for the ten years he fucked me over. I have NOT been able to forgive him for quitting meetings and therapy and expecting that to be ok with me. I cannot forgive him for forcing my hand so that I had no choice but to file for divorce. I cannot forgive him for the six months since, during which he has failed to keep even ONE of his promises.
Oh, my dear K59, I am hijacking your post and making it about me, as I’m so prone to doing, but what I MEAN to say is I understand. You WANT to believe in his recovery. It has been 4 years since discovery at my house, and my SA SWEARS he has been sober since. No, I can’t believe that. I can’t believe it because he STILL DOES NOT have the capacity for empathy. And if he can’t empathize, what would keep him from fucking me over again? He has no concept of the pain. He has no compassion for me. There is no true remorse. He doesn’t deserve my love, my faith, to be in my presence. Nor does your husband. Make him earn it; you are worth it.
I have given up on mine.
July 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm #43414dianeParticipantHi Karyn,
You aren’t whiny and lame. I think you are talking about exactly what you should be talking about. Your concerns all makes sense. And you sound like someone worth fighting for.Here’s a few things that might be worth considering:
1. Your own traumatized state (PTSD)
As someone who has been traumatized by the discover of a pervasive lying and infidelity, indeed a whole secret life your husband had, you will have symptoms of PTSD. This is the explosion of the primary core of security and trust in your life. You will at least be hit by schrapnel, and may have taken a direct hit. You need your own therapist who is a trauma-based counsellor to help you with this. Barb Steffens book also helped me a lot by educating me about how my symptosn manifested, and how I could learn to soothe some of them myself. Of course you don’t trust him, he hasn’t earned it yet. And it is WAY too soon for him to expect it.2. His pretentious manner
Your SA/compulsive husband had a very rich secret life. He gradually was moving more of himself into it, and the rest was facade. But he had a place to go with his sexual exploits, and experiments, so he was grounded in deceit and secrets. That’s how he stabilized his life. As a result less of him was present in the “fake life” with you. I think when he stopped/curtailed his sexual infidelity to you, he was left with the fake life as the “real life”, and he hasnt’ been really present in it for so long, that he’s relearning how to be present in it. And maybe he’s not very good at it. Maybe he’s still relying on the sexual life in him mind, and he’s still off there. He’s lost his real world, and is left with the one he turned into a lie. He has to learn how to be authentically present.
3. the underlying PD
Most of us who’ve been around the block on this whole thing are convinced that most SA/compulsives are also people with Personality disorders. Many of these have significant narcissistic components. In other words you actually have to have the narcissitic PD to have the narcisstic traits. Other PD’s have them.
So I’m wondering if this manner you are picking up, combined with his anger when you try to speak of your own experience of him and how it affects you and what you need from him, is this trait unmedicated by the sexually compulsive masturbation, hooky-ups etc. The maintaining of a secret life is itself an arrogance that expresses the narcissism within him. This is one of the reason I rant about the 12 step secret life, which simply plays into the same narcissism. (that’s exactly how mine used it). Narcissism does not offer empathy, or afford anyone the notion that their life’s experience matters at all against the narcissist’s.Well there’s just a few ideas about what might be in play in this difficult time. You may be looking at as much as you will ever get out of this man. A sober narcissistic person. Not very attractive. I said “no thanks”, but you may choose differently in the end. It’s hard when you think they are trying to get somewhere, and have made progress, but you realize how far they have to go to actually bring any mutuality to the relationship at any minimal level.
take care of you
Diane.July 13, 2012 at 3:38 pm #43415anniemMemberOh, Karyn, I..and so many of us.. know so well what you are going through. That feeling that you can’t quite put your finger on. When you mentioned he seemed ‘pretentious’ during sex, something rang a bell with me, because my h.. while not exactly pretentious during it.. seems to be watching himself, as if he’s acting in a play. Even just hugging me, he’s always seemed that way. I haven’t yet read any posts in this thread beyond just your first post, so my apologies if I’m repeating something. But I’m wondering if what you’re experiencing from him is a personality disorder that’s underlying the sex addiction. And the intimacy disorder that seems to be a hallmark of these guys. He may well not have ‘acted out,’ but from what I’ve learned, stopping the porn/sex addiction is just the tip of the iceberg. And then we’re left with the guy underneath who is more than a little farked up. I mean, we all have our problems and our flaws, but with these SA’s, it seems to affect their entire being at every level. I spent years shrugging off the feeling that my h just never really seemed present. I thought I was just expecting too much. So that feeling you have that something is ‘off,’ pay attention to it. You mentioned that you’ve written many posts and then deleted them, and I hope you will always feel free to write whatever you want. That’s what this site and all of us are here for. xoxo
July 13, 2012 at 3:44 pm #43416972MemberDo you have your own therapist that is well versed in SA??
July 13, 2012 at 4:05 pm #43417AnonymousInactiveDear God, the validation is like quenching a parched thirst. Thank you so much for responding with insight that only experience can provide.
Bev, we use the same therapist who comes from the trauma-based model. He’s done an excellent job of helping me where I’m able to let him and is very firm and direct in dealing with my husband. My husband’s high regard for him and positive response to him continues to surprise me. He leads sa and partner intensives, workshops and sa therapist training alongside Barbara Steffins from time to time and has been an amazingly insightful advocate for me.
Realizing he is not immune to being unknowingly deceived by my husband compromises my ability to relax and trust everything he offers me in counsel. I hate that. I wish genuine trust borne of wisdom really was as simple as a choice.
I’m telling ya, this has messed with me in ways I can’t seem to grab hold of and deal with. Strong one minute and broken the next. I HATE inconsistency and somehow I’ve allowed it to define me?
I am gradually coming to the conclusion I’ve fought for so long – divorce may be my option for finding a life I can thrive in. NOT the choice I would like to have as my best option but may be the reality.
July 13, 2012 at 6:41 pm #43418kmfMemberDear Karyn,
I don’t really know what to say…..your post really upset me and your H’s disclosure makes me feel sick. A couple of years ago I used to go on recovery nation and read the SA’s posts and think “Who are these people?” One post has ALWAYS stuck in my mind. The thread had to do with how honest the recovering SA’s were with their partners. They talked about the various things they would share with their wives and what they wouldn’t share. One man stated that he would tell his wife anything EXCEPT he no longer found her sexually attractive. I remember thinking that the ONE thing he wouldn’t tell her was the one thing she needed most to know and it made me feel sick to my stomach.These men have lived their whole lives using deception to hide who they are and get what they want. They never seem to be able to really give it up. Even when they are protecting you they are fucking you over??
I don’t know about your husband’s recovery. It doesn’t bode well that he shuts down or becomes angry when you try to describe your experience of what sex with him feels like. I think it is highly unlikely that your instincts are wrong? What we experience as women during sexual relations is finely tuned. IF he doesn’t seem there or sincere he probably isn’t…but he sure as HELL doesn’t want you to know that? So don’t listen to what he says? What does he know? Honor your feelings…they are more accurate than you know.
Now to your state of mind. EVERYTHING you are experiencing is completely normal and most of us have felt the same way. You cannot see it now BUT it will get better. That is the good news. The bad news is it can take a long time. I think duration of healing is directly linked to how much contact you have with your abuser …but that might just be me. You are going to get better…with or without him. Unfortunately, YOU have to decide if you want to give him another chance or not? You may find that even if you want to..you cannot…but that usually takes a while to see clearly. Even if he NEVER takes a wrong step (HIGHLY unlikely IMO) you may not be able to move past it. I remember what he said about what it was like to have sex with you? That is a GREAT deal for a woman to overcome. Some women wouldn’t want to overcome it….they would prefer to overcome HIM?
You shouldn’t be afraid to post and it is good to post. We might rant and rave and spew advise but most of us don’t know what we are doing half the time so you are in good company. 😉 If you want to keep trying with him- fine. If you don’t- fine. You are safe here. Whether you are safe with him remains to be seen…..listen to your gut.
You will be ok. It doesn’t seem that way but you will. You are traumatized and hurt and trying to keep a relationship with the person who did it to you. Is it any wonder you feel mixed up? NO it isn’t. Come see us more often. We care about you and have no ulterior motive. Some CSATS may think we are men bashers but they are wrong. We would all like tohave a decent man. Decent being the operative word. Karen xxJuly 13, 2012 at 7:07 pm #43419pam-cParticipantDear Karyn59
I am so very sorry, for all of the hurt that you have been through. It was quite a lengthy disclosure to you. And it will take time to process — the trauma, the deception, the where do I go from here? you are doing well.
I really really understand the “something feels off” statement. The first 6mos to a year after D day, I had intermitent bouts of that. Looking back, sometimes I think it was PTSD, and feeling “off” and foggy headed myself. But often it was knowing something was off with him also. I too, couldn’t place it. couldn;t really say why. it just was.
and my H at the time was off. it may not mean necessarily acting out, but they are off in some way. whether it is dealing with the reality of their marriage, their own behavior, or, they are some how acting out in a secret way, way underground as you mentioned. it could be.
it’s awful. I know the distrust you have is not who you were before. but we are permanently changed from the experience arn’t we? I mean trust can never be the same as it was, because the addiciton is permanent, is in it can only be managed not cured. we manage with it, or we don’t kind of thing.
I am glad you are having success with your CSAT. However I always get a bit concerned on them. I know this may sound jaded, but, i have a lack of trust in CSAT’s being able to effectively treat BOTH SA and partner. no human being is that objective and clear. Plus, the addict’s success or not is often tied to their ego, “oh they are doing so well…. ” i.e. my treatment and ability as a therapist is amazing so of course they are progressing. it is not always the case. SA’s are extremely deceptive, AND they will protect the addiction at all costs. AND the CSAT has access to YOU. they know that if perhaps, that CSAT EVER shared recent sins, you might be gone. they won’t risk it, most of them, and will keep leading all – the therapist, the wife, with blindfolds down his dead end. I know I sound terrible. But I think it is all too real.
Plus, how can they really treat your trauma effectively, if they are treating his side of the story also?
all i am saying, is perhaps someone just for YOU in addition to the CSAT would be really helpful. they have no preconceived ideas of who your H is. only the facts- as YOU know them. i think it would be really really helpful for you to have a different perspective to pull from besides the CSAT you are both seeing. I think it just may clear up that “off feeling” and put your feet on solid ground.
keep the faith.July 13, 2012 at 8:08 pm #43420972MemberFind YOU a therapist that advocates for YOU. He fucked around and lied and now claims addict status…. You did not.
July 13, 2012 at 9:03 pm #43421marchParticipantPam is so right about CSAT’s. They should NOT be treating the partners too.
July 13, 2012 at 9:49 pm #43422hannaParticipantYour husband sounds a lot like mine. He didn’t do the cheating and the hookers (I have my doubts about the hookers) but the constant whacking off and waking up in the middle of the night to watch porn… I mean SERIOUSLY!!!
Sometimes I think that is worse because what’s wrong with a guy watching porn and whacking off? We are supposed to be liberal, and wild in bed, and sexy, and experimenting with our sexuality, so whats so bad about porn and masturbation? Well, we all know exactly what! And then, doesn’t that make us the uptight bitch, the neurotic, the… yeah, ok I will stop here there is no need for this.The way I always felt with my SAH was that he was always looking for some kind of validation in bed. Having sex for him was the ultimate test of not just masculinity, but personhood. He would play a role in bed, and at the same time he was after my soul. It was like by his sexual prowess he would become a person. Like he was nothing unless he was this dorky Sex-god. It is just one sick and twisted game, or a role, it’s not real.
And then outside of bed he didn’t want to talk about anything. But when I got angry with him he was like a puppy dog. When I was angry with him were those few moments when I saw the real him. I saw his “soul” or rather the lack of it. The panic, the sheer terror he must have felt with the realization that he was NOBODY.I keep thinking about him like he really does not have a personality (he actually told me this very early in our relationship. I swear from now on when people tell me what they are, I will listen!!), like he does not have a “soul”. And to refill that void he has to perform in life and in bed. The better he does in life/bed, more of a soul he gains.
I don’t know if this makes any sense, but that is how I feel now. I feel like he tried to steal my soul. Like he tried to invalidate my needs to make HIS appear center stage (histrionic PD, think “drama queen”). He tried to live through my feelings (he is the master of melodrama), he sucked the meaning out of my problems to use as his own because he does not have the real ability to FEEL. He took my inner life and turned it into his. He took my “soul”.
That is why I feel so used, so exhausted by male interaction, because I feel like they all are after my soul.
July 13, 2012 at 10:03 pm #43423marchParticipantOh my god, that is exactly it.
July 13, 2012 at 10:26 pm #43424dianeParticipantHoly shit. That’s the scariest true thing I’ve read on this site for ages.
Hanna-Anne-lise
I think you are possible an oracle in this moment.It’s like those things in the Harry Potter movie that sucked the spirits out of people. HOly shit.
July 13, 2012 at 10:57 pm #43425cindy1111ParticipantDear Kayrn59.
what you describe is the dilemma that we all seem to find ourself in.You have received some wonderful words from the other sisters, so I will try not to repeat what they have said, but their words come from my heart as well.
I think that you feel the way you do because you are loyal, loving, caring, and gentle person. You want to believe that he is recovering with all of your heart. The fact that you are even in this situation is upsetting enough, and it would be so nice if you could just fully believe that everything will be alright. There is a nagging in your inner being that feels fear and does not know if your feelings can be safe with this person. You know that you are hurt beyond what you thought was even possible, but yet, this is your husband right? You have trusted him all of these years. It has become second nature for you to trust him. This makes you feel some inner doubt and guilt that you are questioning things. That is how it so swiftly bounces right back into your lap, and now you are the one feeling bad that you are holding back from the marriage. Now you are thinking that it is you after all. I mean, look at the disclosure that he wrote. He seems to be doing all of the right things. He is going to counseling, he is talking the talk. So panic sets in telling you that it is YOU that is the problem now.
Hold yourself girl…….. Hold it right there….
If you are feeling that something is not right, then trust me, IT IS NOT right. If you are needing more time to figure this out for yourself, then, take that time. If there is pressure for you to feel a certain way, this is NOT OK. Let yourself feel what you feel. After everything that you have been through, it is time to let yourself feel what you feel. You will know when and if you are ready to move forward with the marriage. If you don’t feel it, you can not fake it. If you try to fake it, your life will continue to be a facade that he is directing. Your feelings and your place in your marriage have been genuine. It is the realness of those feelings that have been so damaged right now. He had some problems, you think that he is addressing the problems, that is fine, and maybe your relationship will recover. Until that time, however, keep being real for yourself. If you are not sure right now, then trust that you are not sure. If he can not wait for you to be sure, than that will tell you more than what you need to know for clarity.
Love and hugs,
CindyJuly 13, 2012 at 11:01 pm #43426972MemberWhat exactly is he going to do about it Karyn? If you don`t “get over” it in his time frame? What is the worst thing he can do to you? I bet he has already done his worst…
Do what you need to do…whatever it is…F him.
July 13, 2012 at 11:59 pm #43427teriParticipant“I don’t know if this makes any sense, but that is how I feel now. I feel like he tried to steal my soul. Like he tried to invalidate my needs to make HIS appear center stage (histrionic PD, think “drama queen”). He tried to live through my feelings (he is the master of melodrama), he sucked the meaning out of my problems to use as his own because he does not have the real ability to FEEL. He took my inner life and turned it into his. He took my “soul”.”
It makes perfect sense. Mine did the same to me. He could not have a feeling of his own, he had to steal mine. If I had a complaint or problem, suddenly he had the same complaint or problem.
Diane, they are dementors in Harry Potter.
And he actually planned on taking nude photos of you while you are sleeping- and there’s a website for this shit? Are you kidding me? How could you possibly ever trust him again- that he would even consider such a thing?
July 14, 2012 at 12:10 am #43428972MemberI have decided he cannot have my soul… any more…
July 14, 2012 at 12:52 am #43429teriParticipantAmen, Bev.
Ironically, mine’s doing the opposite since I filed…
He committed adultery, so he is accusing me of adultery.
He left his porn on his computer for my son to find, so he is accusing me of showing it to him.
He is mentally ill, so he is accusing me of being mentally ill.
He emotionally abused me, so he is accusing me of emotional abuse.
He even went so far as to suggest that I may be sexually abusing my son, who still climbs into our king-sized bed when he has insomnia. This after his covert sexual abuse of our daughter for years.Sick-o.
July 14, 2012 at 1:16 am #43430annabeginsParticipantKaryn
I had to blink a few times reading what ur sa wrote in his disclosure, we could b married to the same man and when he mentioned driving to la to see his parents I thought crap he’s hacked into the website
U r not alone, that off feeling. It is the explanation of all of the past wrongs we misses throughout the years bc our minds could not go there, we could not imagine this was the secret life the lead
It strikes me how robotic his written statement is, again identical to what I received. How much it is intellectually written how they deal w this like they do everything else With 0 emotion. And is why u feel something is off. On the one hand u hear this man saying all the write recovery words and writing his disclosure of all the shit he did and it’s like that are saying something but the behavior doesn’t commiserate w what’s being written or said. I don’t know if I’m making sense but it’s like from 2000-2002 I visited x number of bookstores whacking off and let a dude suck me off. And then I went along my day at th grocery and forgot the milk
If I had fallen to a place where I was masterbating in a dark room allowing strangers to get me off
My words would say something like this
I was horrified at the depths I allowed myself to go. And I am disguste with myself for putting my life and urs and our kids in danger. I am only beginning to realize the depth of the work I have to do and do not deserve ur love and support u should run screaming. But I am committed to figuring out how I got myself into this place and will do anything I can to make this up to u. To help u recover from this for the rest of my life even if we divorce I will do anything so that u know how sorry I am an that u know my abhorrent behavior has nothing to do w u and your worth. Bc u r priceless and I should have never disrespected you, our family and our marriage the way I did
Instead its I hardly spent any money and from this yr to this yr I did 1.2.3. So sorry lovey but I’m good now. So shall u be
Fuckers.
U r right where u r. And u continue getting help and let ur self decide when u believe him or trust him.
I told mine last week I dont trust him, I don’t want to have sex w him. And I don’t know if I ever will trust him or want him to touch me again. And that of he gets tired of that He can file for divorce. I’m not changing my life bc he led a secret life for the past 18 years and I can’t seem to get over it. Maybe I will in 17 more years.
XxooJuly 14, 2012 at 1:45 am #43431mushlrcParticipantAnnabeggins mentioned how robotic his D was. I totally agree. It almost reminded me of the demeanor that the BTK Killer had on his televised disclosure of all his murders in the court room. I am convinced that there is some sociopathic traits that accompany these guys.
Go with your guts. I heard whispers from my gut here and there along the way. I kept choosing to ignore it because each little thing seemed easy enough to brush off. Collectively now it all makes sense to me and I haven’t even scratched the surface of what my H has done. He refuses disclosure or help.
Anyway, well wishes and healing for you. The sisters here are wonderful and have lot’s of good advice. I’m new and they have helped and encouraged me. It’s just so comforting to have a sounding board that actually can relate to what you are feeling and going through.
{{HUGS}}
~Michelle~July 14, 2012 at 2:55 am #43432anniemMemberStacy, where you said, “U r not alone, that off feeling. It is the explanation of all of the past wrongs we misses throughout the years bc our minds could not go there, we could not imagine this was the secret life the lead,” that’s exactly it. We can go for years minimizing that something feels off, putting it onto ourselves, thinking it’s our imagination, all that. But once the veil comes off, those same behaviors we previously shrugged off take on a whole new meaning. Maybe in the past we got along more or less ok with them seeming unreal, and just adapted to it. But now not only do we have to deal with the shock of their secret life, but with realizing how much of a stranger they really were all along. xoxo
July 14, 2012 at 6:27 am #43433lynng2ParticipantKaryn,
If something doesn’t feel right, it’s not. Of course you are going to doubt your feelings, after what we go through, nothing seems 100% no matter how much validation we get – but why not give yourself, – your intuition – the benefit of the doubt, instead of SAH? Honestly, in comparison, which has treated you better?
It is scary how on target we are, usually. When I got through reading the tormenting 142 page disclosure my H put me through, I read my journal (such as it is, I keep getting too overwhelmed to write and probably had 35 pages for that same time period, that being the first year we were married) as comparison, and saw that EVERY SINGLE TIME he called his “soul mate” favorite hooker I knew. Every single time. There were journal entries in my journal that I had even ASKED HIM WHY HE WAS SO DISTANT and I even pushed him off of the bed when we were making love because it FELT LIKE HE WAS MAKING LOVE TO SOMEONE WHO WASN’T EVEN THERE. My own words.
I cried like a baby when I compared those two documents because I remember feeling so ashamed of speaking those words to him, as he soothed me that I was completely wrong, I was the woman of his dreams. And being on fire with rage that he was the cause of that whole rollercoaster of emotion. HE KNEW I WAS RIGHT, and yet he was looking me directly in the eye and willingly discounting each and every time my honest connection to him, my completely vulnerable and honest with him, screamed FOUL!!!
He of course minimized and redirected and as a newlywed, I chalked it up to just geting to really know one another. This is severely creepy, because there was not one shred of available tangible evidence and I had no clue what was really going on. He did the emails from work and the phone calls and texts were made on a secret separate phone he keep in his car (I found later when he forgot and left in his pants pocket and it went of in the closet at 3am when his hooker was replying). ALL appearances were he was a devoted husband and father. There was NO WAY IN HELL that I should have known. It was the vibe. It was all wrong.
July 14, 2012 at 7:05 am #43434kmfMemberThe other thing I thought reading his disclosure is this. Do the CSAT’s coach them in how to write so that all the acts are intellectualized? Or do they write that the way because they are emotional voids?? I agree with March….their wording in no way conveys that they feel discust or real regret for what they have done? Something just doesn’t ring true…just like their bullshit explanations? I think when they first give up abit of honesty, we are so shocked they are not lying that we focus on the details. We don’t initially grasp that there is so little emotion behind their story. If you compare one of their disclosures to the the stories written by women on SOS you can clearly see the difference. The women here can easily convey their agony and the depth of their pain. There is no ignoring their emotionality. But the SA’s write as if it is simply an obligation to be dealt with and something they are emotionally removed from. It is bloody creepy and what Hanna said….Wow…I think you are dead on. My soul isn’t up for grabs, but I cannot even begin to list the number of times in the last 8 years that I have thought my husband believes he needs me in order to be real. The longer I stay in this game, the more I read and listen, the more I am convinced that what we are viewing is actually a desperate attempt to by them to fill in huge gaping holes in their personalities….at our expense? They are truly emotional vampires and instead of sucking your blood they suck your identity and morality because they don’t have any. Did I mention they are f–king creepy. GAWD. I feel like a broken record…… Karen x
July 14, 2012 at 8:02 am #43435kmfMemberDear Karen,
I just wanted to add something to your comment about it defining you. I saw a therapist who worked with the shrink that assessed my H. I was very lucky in that she was trained at the Sexual Recovery Institute BUT she wasn’t convinced it was all about an addiction. She was very interested in personality disorders and clearly believed PD’s played a role. I say I was lucky because she NEVER tried to lay any of that co addict crap on me….she didn’t like that label for partners. Anyway…I bring her up because of your comment. One of the first things she said to me was, “I am guessing this has pretty much taken over your life?”, to which I answered a resounding Yes. The sensation that you are drowning in sexual addiction day in and day out is, I believe, a universal phenomena for partners. I can remember thinking…”Am I going to wake up EVERY day of my miserable life with his perversion as the first thing on my mind!” I guess that total preoccupation with it, is our way of somehow trying to process the reality of our own lives and the magnitude of their deception and betrayal. We are attempting to redefine ourselves with this new reality. They blow your life out of the water and it appears there isn’t a quick fix for the damage they do. Quite a few wives spend additional years caught up in their husband’s “recovery” and on the fence as to whether he is now telling the truth or not. I didn’t go down that road as I believed from very early on that the whole concept was bogus and the experts were as looney as their patients. BUT thats just me and we are talking about you. 😉 My husband didn’t get recovered and I didn’t get divorced but I have managed to move on just the same. I no longer spend every waking minute thinking about this and I feel hopeful about life again. I’m not special…I didn’t take drugs or even have much therapy. I don’t know how I got from being obsessed and filled with rage and pain to where I am now? I guess time is a healer and some where along the line I decided it wsn’t my problem BUT I was paying for it with My life. I don’t know my future…it isn’t particularly settled. I just want you to know it gets better. It won’t always be like it is now. Diane often talks about hope for our own lives and I believe that is the key to our healing? You have a life. Your H does not own it. You will continue to have a life with or without him. Try (and I know how inane it all sounds right now) to fill up your own life and try to make choices that benefit you. Try not to make your life about what HE is doing? You are more than your marriage and your relationship and you are going to get better. It won’t be like this forever but it is also alright that just now you don’t know which end is up. Hang in there. karen xx
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