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I wish he could get the real concept of humility in the face of all this. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn’t. Lately he doesn’t. He says he doesn’t believe in a personal God, and is using Zen Buddhism as his higher power. Which would be fine, except that I think the concept of ‘detachment’ in Zen appeals to his detached self and to his protective ego somehow. I think he’s stuck. Nine months after entering recovery he’s still working on his third step and his sponsor is rarely available. He goes to therapy once a week. But for some reason I feel like his therapy is making him cocky in some ways. It wasn’t in the beginning..quite the opposite. I don’t feel hopeful today. I’m just randomly typing out my thoughts because lately I’ve been hesitant to do that, and I don’t really know why. Guess I’ve been afraid of being told that the only answer is to leave for good, or that people will be impatient with me. Maybe by now I should be feeling stronger and more decisive. But I’m not. I second-guess myself as much as I ever did. I don’t think he’s a bad person. He just isn’t capable yet of being the person I need him to be. Someone who stays consistently humble in the face of all this. Not shamed and breast-beating..just humble, and keeping the big picture in his head. It’s hard when sometimes he is humble, and sometimes he isn’t. I’ve forgotten what normal feels like. Maybe I never really knew what that was anyway. It’s almost 2 pm here, and I’m sitting here in my robe. I don’t know what I’m feeling right now. It’s not self-pity, just sort of frozen and empty. He told me that yesterday his therapist said that if he could, he would “warn the partners that the addict learns in recovery to try to be more honest about his feelings and better about communicating those feelings.” It rubs me the wrong way, for some reason. Like these poor SAs have all this bottled up stuff that they need to express to us, or that they now need to communicate *their* needs to us in a healthy way. Makes me angry, like everything is still all about them. I haven’t noticed my h bottling up his anger..especially lately. I don’t like the word ‘warn’ that his therapist used. I don’t like anything much today. Thanks for letting me ramble. I know this is all over the place, but I feel so crappy today.
Love you all. xoxoI don’t like that use of the word ‘warn’ either, Annie. Like, now we’re going to hear the things we should be thankful we never had to hear in the past. My SA’s idea of being honest in recovery was to tell me when he though I was doing something wrong, when he needed something from me, when I’d hurt his feelings. What I wanted him to be honest about was his childhood, his ideas on how he got this way, how he envisioned our future, the regrets that might have popped in his mind on his drive to work, how sorry he was for this and that, any sudden realizations he had regarding the damage he’d done to the kids or to me…Never got those things–just “I feel like you are shaming me right now” and “I’m afraid you’re never going to be able to let this go.”
Oh Annie, I am SO sorry. I get the whole not wanting to post what’s going on in your life for fear of the reactions on SOS, but Sister, we’re not EVER going to get impatient with you or tell you that you have to make a decision one way or the other. Girlfriend, I am the biggest proponent of ‘sitting on the fence’ that there ever was. I found this quote: ‘He has sat on the fence so long, the iron has entered his soul.’ I believe I, too, will sit on the fence that long. Would you like to join me? Love, Liza
Dear Annie,
No one is going to get impatient with you, dear girl.You are your own wman on your own path? I am sorry you are feeling this way. I think I hear you saying something here, but I will spit it out so you can verify. I think you are saying that his main recovery work is therapy and that he is not becoming more compassionate by attending? I think you are afraid this therapist is turning your husband against you. I remember his comments about you showing up at his flat at 23:30pm. I can feel your concern because if this therapist was at all defending your position…then it does seem like your H should be less cocky and more considerate? I don’t like the word warn either Annie. It makes me wonder what the two of them are up to? 🙁 Karen xx
Dear, dear March…he PROBABLY doesn’t have any regrets , the scum sucking loser. 🙁 I HATE these guys. Karen xx
Annie,
no one will ever lose patience. it is one of the hardest decisions of our lives. even if you never ever are able to get off the fence, (which I doubt will happen) keep posting. that is what this place is all about.
Annie, 1 year ago i posted “i have decided to stay” and basically took divorce off the table. and then, well, crazy addiction behavior resumed, and here I am now, moving out. I have flip flopped more times the Dr. Scholl’s 🙂 — and sometimes still do. (in my feelings but NOT my decision).
btw it’s not “like” it all about them, it IS all about them. that is why you feel neglectged and sad and are in your robe at 2pm.
who is taking care of Annie?
and if he’s unwilling / unable to do it. who is? trust yourself more annie. there’s a girl inside who knows just what to do.
Annie,
You are brave to let your vulnerability to show.
I was on the fence for 6 years waiting. I was just trying to hold out until my kids graduated and hoping he would make some progress, but he forced my hand with the latest discovery. I don’t think very many of us threw them out at the first sign of a problem, so we have all been on the fence at some time.Unfortunately, my experience was like March’s as far as honesty. And that “warning”- that’s chilling.
As far as getting cocky, sometimes in therapy, they are told to be more assertive, and they can end up being cocky or even aggressive because they don’t truly understand what it means to be assertive in a healthy way. And then they are told that you will probably resist their efforts to be assertive, so if you protest, then you are the problem. (surprise, surprise, huh?)
I’ll echo Pam- trust yourself.
Annie
No-one is going to be inpatient with you. We all have to come to our decisions, one way or the other, in our own time. I, for one, sat in the fence for 3 yrs before I made mine.It takes time and a lot of processing. Take that time and know we are here for you in that process.
Maybe some of the reservations you have are because some of us have been on s.o.s. for a long time and you will hear some of us being quite blunt with eachother. These are sister’s who know eachother well. I, for one, welcomed their opinions because I was in a hopeless situation and needed to hear it- I had hope when there was none. But, never for one moment believe we will tell you what to do unless you ask us to. Now if you are still on the fence in 3 yrs. like
I was, you may get an opinion or two-Ha! Every situation is unique and we all respect that. So, feel free to let it all out here, and we will support you 100%.
Love to you,
SharronLiza, I will be most happy to join you on the fence.
March, you nailed it.. that thing about how we’re now going to hear the things we should be thankful we didn’t hear before. That’s exactly what it feels like to me. Now they’re all ‘healthy’ and will proceed to tell us all the things they were angry at us about while they were busy off porking skanks.
Karen, he goes to SAA meetings as well as therapy, but yes, you’re right, it’s a feeling like being ganged up on by him and the therapist. And then having to monitor this kind of reaction on my part, because I know well how hyper-sensitive I can be. Once again, I wish I had your great memory, Karen..You’re absolutely right about that time I showed up at his place, and the ‘vengeful’ title I got given by his therapist. I am not liking this therapist one little bit.Teri, this part: “As far as getting cocky, sometimes in therapy, they are told to be more assertive, and they can end up being cocky or even aggressive because they don’t truly understand what it means to be assertive in a healthy way. And then they are told that you will probably resist their efforts to be assertive, so if you protest, then you are the problem. (surprise, surprise, huh?)” You hit the nail on the head. There hasn’t been enough time, or enough consistent improvement, to now be getting cocky and enthusiastic about expressing themselves to us, if that ‘expression’ involves any complaints about us. Especially since they’re so often self-absorbed pricks in the first place. God, I’m still in a wretched mood, huh?
Pam and Sharron, thank you for sharing what you guys went through as well, as far as trying to make a decision.
It takes guts and embracing life to do what you.. and so many others.. have done.You’re all so lovely and kind.. Thank you so much. xoxo
Annie,
You are the sweetest, and it just makes me so crazy and hurt to think of you struggling this way. Of course you are just wishing and hoping that he would understand the concept of humility. You have been through so much and you are looking, looking, and looking for that piece of compassion to come out. You want it so bad and you want it from HIM! Isn’t this the man you fell in love with? Isn’t this the man you married? The exposure of his behaviors makes us question the past you had with him. Did you ever have compassion from him. All of a sudden, you don’t know the answer to that. You thought you did, but where is it right now? Did you miss something? You try to remember but even your memories seem to play a game with your mind. So you look harder and you think that, yes, today, I saw it. I think he was showing some compassion. But wait, was it? Maybe you will keep still and try hard to not make tension between the two of you. You consciously are trying to be calm and let this part of him come out to re-assure you that, yes, in fact, there it was, he showed empathy. Just when you have convinced yourself that maybe, just maybe, he is starting to get it, WAM BAM!!!!!!!! the manipulating, defensive, blame shifting, mind set kicks back in.
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO…….. it can’t be. Your sure he was getting it. You prayed that he would get it. You wanted so bad that he would get it.
HE DOESN’T GET IT!!!!!!
He can’t. He does not have the capacity to get it. What we thought was perhaps a glimmer of hope turns out to be a fart in the wind!!!!!! (OK, so I am not really sure what that means, but I am laughing!!!!))))))))
Honey, I am just trying to let you know that I get it. I understand what you are saying, and I get that you want your marriage to work. I get that you are holding on for dear life. I get that you question yourself and your decisions and your sanity.
Please don’t ever think that you can’t share your deepest fears and concerns here. Your sharing with all of us and being real is what helps all of us to process everything. I am not happy to know that you are in your robe feeling lonely, frozen and empty, but knowing that I am not the only one feeling those same things is a blessing to me. That may sound weird, because I am not saying that it is a blessing to know that your feeling bad, but it just helps me to feel more normal. When I hear about your sorrow, I get so protective of you. I just want to jump over there and give you hug. Tell you that you are normal. Tell you that you are just working through all of this. Tell you to be patient with yourself. We have all been through very similar situations, but each of us have a little different twist and each of us have our own unique way of how it affects us. We are all at different places on our journey and the key is to learn from each other as we support each other. I believe that the family here on SOS have only the best intentions as we each try to offer guidance to a situation that is not caught up in mainstream society.
When I listen and feel the things that I would say to you while your struggling, I can hear them for myself too. I listen to the strength I can muster for you and remind myself, that I can be strong for me too. It is a good thing. Please let us be here for you. I am sorry that you are feeling so crappy today, but I am glad that you chose to ramble and write what is on your heart.
We are here dear friends.
Hugs Cindy
You know, now that I think of it, maybe we should just build a VERY VERY high fence around all of us lovely ladies to keep all of these pricks the FUCK away from us.
Can we make it an electric fence? With barbed wire and water all around it ( maybe an alligator or two)?
Annie
some days just stink.No one can leave until they know they are done. For some that’s from day one. For others it’s never. For still others there is a leaving, and then a coming home. And then there’s everything in between that.
Just know where you are. Understand why you have stayed or why you have left or sent him away. Understand why you aren’t done, or why you are. It’s doesn’t even have to be in complete sentences. Your life is yours.
But I know sometimes we feel very fragile. Could that be how it is right now? If so, thanks for telling us. We can do fragile.
blowing kisses,
D.Cindy, you are such an angel. Will you be my therapist? 🙂 It’s like you’re inside my head. But I don’t feel sweet or normal.. I feel like I go from being a raging lunatic to crying tears of pity for him to who-the-hell-knows-what. Just a mess. I know.. I absolutely know.. that idle threats and ultimatums mean nothing, but I KEEP ON DOING THEM. I did one this morning.. emailed him to please just go away, after he’d sent me the email telling me what his therapist said. I meant it at the time..sort of.. Now feeling remorseful. Before feeling remorseful, I was mimicking him out loud (because of course he didn’t respond to my email) saying, ‘Otay.. duh yup.. I’ll go away. Let me see what’s on my schedule for today..Off to class I go, duh yup.’ The guy can be so goddam passive! For someone who professes to love me and want to keep me, he’s such a pansy-ass. I dunno what the hell i want.. maybe a reaction from him? Something? Very childish of me, I know. God, it’s just so messed up. I’m so messed up. It’s like sometimes my maternal heartstrings feel pulled for him, but he’s not my kid. Other times.. like today.. I act like a kid trying to get his attention. I feel like I’m yelling down a well to him,
‘IS THERE ANYBODY IN THERE?” Aarggh..Diane, thank you. I do need to think about why we’re separated, and why I can’t yet envision living together, yet also can’t envision having him out of my life. Taking limbo to a fine art.
Liza, yesiree..I’ll just slug it right from the bottle!
Love you guys. xoxo
Anniem- can I suggest minimizing contact with him? Even emails , texts, and phone calls- and those should be only about essentials like finances and children’s issues. You do not need to be hearing about his therapy sessions. That is going to just bring up all your anger, sadness, hopes, disappointment etc. I think your initial reaction telling him to go away was a good one- it was protective, and you should protect yourself right now.
I understand the ride and it is a lousy place to be. Getting some distance (and a good therapist and support group!) certainly helped me clear my head and see the big picture.
Hi Annie,
I’m sorry you have been feeling crappy. This is a lot to process and absorb and it’s not much of a picnic. I too was on the fence because I truly loved my h and I wanted to believe he could beat this addiction. Then he went crazy and threw me out. If he hadn’t, I’d still be on the fence. This road is very bumpy and unpredictable with lots of pot holes.I know I quote Dr. Phil a lot (per Claire 🙂 ). One time I heard him say “sometimes we have to give ourselves what we wish we could get from someone else”. When I heard it 5 yrs ago, it didn’t have much meaning. Now it does. Are you doing some good things for yourself ? I hope so because you deserve good things Annie, we all do. Thinking of you.
Love, Nap
Thank you, NAP. You’re such a love. I feel like I’m doing too much for myself these days..being a lazy slob. I’m getting more self-centered by the minute. But I’m not really taking care of myself.. you know, eating right, getting fresh air, that kind of thing. And I need to go in that direction, because I’m not physically feeling all that well, and it’s my own fault, because I smoke like a chimney, and haven’t set foot in a doctor’s office in 17 years, having a doctor-phobia on top of all my other zillion phobias.
NAP, after having the horror of being thrown out of your house on top of all the trauma, how did you manage to survive and stay sane? Because you have obviously done way better than just survive, and your spirit is still so caring and loving, and you still have such a good sense of humor. You blow me away. Really xoxoTeri, I know you’re right about minimizing contact with him. I have this stupid weakness about him, where it still feels weird not to talk to him. This is one area where, as much as I don’t like the whole COSA thing, I know I could be their poster child even so. Sometimes I use the excuse of my age.. 56.. but then I think about sisters like Sharron, who is 70, and who is taking charge of her life and being really strong. It’s really humbling, and I am awed by her energy and strength. xoxo
Annheim-Not to worry. We all have had or have a weakness towards our SA’s. That is what makes us so special-we can love and they cannot. It takes awhile to wean ourselves and climb out of their web. They really know how to spin one. You will get there.
Please take care of yourself. I did the same thing for a while-smoked like a chimney and ate like shit. But, then it dawned on me-Steve was not suffering like I was, so why should I self destruct at the expense of “psycho dude”(As one of the sister’s used to call him-how appropriate).
You are stronger than you think. Just because you are going through some rough times does not mean you are not going to rally in the end. This detaching thing is hard on us, but that too will pass.
Stay strong sister-I’m pulling for you! If you ever want to talk, give me a call. My cell is 913-832-3470. I loved talking to for-now, and I would look forward to talking with anyone who needs a shoulder to cry on. I have been through everything you are going through, and it took me way to look to get where I am at, but you can win this battle.
Hugs,
SharronDear Annie, see how much we love you? Don’t go holing up by yourself, just because u feel you love and need your SAH? It is ok. If you do the math…u will see that it took many of us YEARS to get any kind of closure on all of this and even then it is tenuous? I have been in my PGs for years..so don’t sweat that. It is ok to cocoon…maybe even necessary. Eventually, you will become bored with the isolation and want to be more engaged in life? My youngest sister is RIDDLED with phobias…she is afraid of EVERYTHING. But other than that she is sweet, engaging, intelligent and attractive. Phobias are simply misplaced anxiety. We all have at least one and some of us have several. Phobias are NOTHING to be ashamed of. They are probably the most common mental health disorder on the planet, from the fear of dogs to the fear of heights? Your anxiety has NOTHING to do with what your H does. Absolutely nothing. You are better than you think you are Annie. Karen xx
Sharron, Karen, I don’t know how to thank you enough for your kindness.
Sharron, so sweet and generous of you to share your phone number, and Karen, your empathy and support about phobias.. You sisters’ words give me so much comfort. Who would have thought one could turn on a computer and find a place where angels hang out? You are all the bestest.
xoxo
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