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Help me out sisters. I have heard many people suggest a “hands off” approach to our h’s recovery plan. I understand that perspective. (He needs to select a counselor, choose which support group works for him, read the books that help him, choose an accountability partner…)
Yet, many h’s are clueless to what their issues are and would select a non-CSAT counselor who soothes his conscience and believes his self-deceptive lies, for example. Also, my h met with a free mentor on a weekly basis after disclosure. He did not help my h or us at all. I was contemplating separation as he went out for breakfast to do whatever they did. It was a joke really. If he makes his own recovery plan, it could take about 10 years for certain major areas to be approached???
Also, as some sisters have mentioned, for them an annual lie detector test or disclosure to children was imperative to their own healing; therefore those requests were deal breakers if not followed up on.
Help me out…this seems like a contradiction.
Thank you, B. TrayedHi Bt,
I think the h who are sober and in a true recovery have a boundary agreement from their wives, have appropriate treatment in place with a reliable therapist, are completely transparent about money, time away, and their computer use. The boundary agreement written by the wife has consequences. I think where the hands off comEd into play is instead of checking up on them 24/7, they may use a lie detector test to see if they are truthful.My opinion much like Dr. Phil, ” if a dogs going to hunt, he’s going to hunt.”. And “if a mans going to cheat, you can’t build a fence high enough”. He uses lie detectors on his show occasionally and the men who say they arnt cheating anymore ( and the wife thinks they are) take it and fail then the h is usually shipped off to a treatment center.
People with nothing to hide nothing. If a h has defenses in place, wont see a therapist, lies, is no where near recovery and all of the above is all for not, in my opinion. Sa in true Recovery are very open and committed on their own. They are very few and far between.
U
Hi B.t.
Excellent question. I think our responsibility as a healthy spouse is to let them know what recovery looks like to us, and their responsibility as a recovering addict is to make their own choices. And then our job to decide if that is the life we want, based on their choices.
MarieGood morning b-t
My h has a really good csat. He is 3 hours away and it is a pain to plan it, so he canceled the last 2 appointments. For me that says a lot.
His csat says we need to do weekly sit downs with each other to discuss any slips, bad thoughts, ect. Now my h is traveling so much he doesn’t have time for that either. ok.
my h is an IT guy. work computer so I cant put spyware on. I have access to one of his email accounts. ok
The thing is he has lied to me and the rest of the world for the last 28 years. I never knew. He is very good at this. even if he gave me complete transparency I still would not believe him. So I will rely on the tools available. I believe it is my only option.
His therapists said the next lie detector test will have full disclosure. I don’t know why it is taking so long, my h swears I know everything!
I think if you really want to know for certain you have the truth you need to do a lie detector test at least once a year. We have been fooled by these guys before, they are good at what they do. The test was around $400. They test all sorts, but do a lot of unfaithful spouses, they know all the questions.
I am surprised at how many of the women on this site freak out at the idea. Our husbands are con artists, use the tool that will make them poop their pants.
~ funny note~ they only take cash! (not paying there taxes, or don’t trust their clients?!)
Thanks ladies. I appreciate every word of insight you give. Yes, Heidi I agree that we can request an annual lie detector test if we need that to feel “somewhat” comfortable. (NAP, thanks for the comment about consequences also – I tend to forget about them!) What a mess though! It really stinks having a h who lied for 20 years, or more.
So I guess it seems like it would be appropriate to have certain requests like:
1. yearly lie detector tests
2. computer accountability
or whatever a wife feels is crucial to stay in the marriage and can be changed based on the wife’s needs.Yet, the h needs to take responsibility for following through on appointments and choosing areas to work on also.
Marie, so good to say, if that doesn’t work for us then we need to consider what life we want.
I guess it is not “all or nothing.” I hear it is codependent to direct him to certain counselors or whatever. I don’t really think so. I think giving some direction and specific requests within a “take responsibility for your own recovery” stance would be best, I guess.
The “all or nothing” thinking may make things seem easier and less complex in life, but that is not necessarily the best path.
Thanks again sisters. (And Heidi, your h’s lack of prioritizing his recovery/your recovery is disappointing!)
Love ya all, B. Trayed
Thanks NAP.
Sisters,
So here is a scenerio that I am not quite sure how to handle. My h chooses to be self-employed and has made up to 68K and as low as 14K (about 3 years ago.) It is a very difficult lifestyle and I do not think he will ever make 50K again really. Once again he cannot pay his quarterly government taxes or our 2K property taxes. Anyway, through the years I have begged and cried for different things, not to say I have made perfect financial choices either. But, I did beg enough to get him to do certain things, but he is now reverting back. For example, after crying and begging for years, he finally let my father help him have a monthly profit and loss statement so we can determine our exact quarterly payment. Estimated payments don’t work when your income varies so much! Anyway, if he doesn’t do his monthly P & L or isn’t able to pay his taxes for another quarter, what kind of consequences would I have??? He will call me contolling probably, a tactic he has used for years, but maybe not. That doesn’t really matter, but how would you handle not being codependent and controlling and setting down realistic requests with consequences? (I remember the year he was doing so poorly. I was taking a walk with him and I told him that he was projected to make only 10K for the entire year at that time. I was not mean, just concerned. He did nothing. He cares, but he did nothing except take the next jobs that came his way and worked hard when he had a job. He has always been willing to work hard, if the job is there. He has even taken second jobs and been creative, but it is never enough. He needs to do more, which is discouraging to him and unsettling with me. Any suggestions?B,
I just had therapy this morning, and this has been a question for me as well. My therapist said almost exactly the same thing Marie said. Bravo, Marie!!
XOXOI am I understanding that Marie suggested that I determine what recovery for my h looks like to me and ask him to do those things…personality test, lie detector, whatever that is for me… and he chooses what to do or not do. Then I decide if I can live with those responses or not??? Thanks, b
Hi b.t.,
I think it’s important to distinguish the difference between what his recovery looks like to you and what you need to be able to work with him during his recovery. Computer accountability, lie detector test, I think are things we as spouses might need and that is okay to ask for and demand. Recovery is about therapy, workbooks, steps, honesty, etcThanks Marie. I think I am understanding more. Lie detector tests may be important to help ME feel safe.
Working with a therapist on his avoidance issues with sexual problems or our finances is recovery. Working on appropriate sexual behavior in the bedroom or doing a wookbook written by a reputable SA specialist is recovery??? Thanks!
Hi B-t,
Does your husband have problems with taking responsibility for his life and being accountable for his actions?We only get a peek through the keyhole, but it seems he does just everything not to be accountable in his faith, his sexual behaviour, his family and friend relationships, his work, and his marriage. What’s going on here? Are you managing everything? I’m intuiting a fair bit of arrogance in this guy, on every level.
I just don’t know if knowing your boundaries, knowing your requirements for recovery, etc. will make any difference at all. It seems like this guy isn’t accountable to anyone. When does he do something? Why are you always doing things?
Why doesn’t he take initiative about a recovery plan? Why doesn’t he do anything?I’m annoyed, but it’s because you work so hard on this, B-t, and I don’t see what he does on any level except make me want to spit nails. Now, he’s yours, I get that. So it only matters what you’re spitting. But hey, maybe time for reality check?
D.xo
Yes Diane,
I am weary. I either manage it all or give up on most areas. Lately he said he would do anything I wanted him to do, so that is a bit stressful but good in ways. He doesn’t really believe in a “recovery plan”. He believes in stopping behaviors and that is that. So now that he is willing to do anything, I have to determine what my role is and what it isn’t. Thanks Diane. I like reality. I want to face the truth of MY life so much lately. I have allowed this inappropriate behavior and I have to find a way to make this work for ME, not just him.
Also, he has made many changes, but not enough for me.
hadj608- I think for the most part lie detector tests are a must, and usually quite accurate. Make sure you have an experienced person doing the testing.
As I have said before, my husband beat the test, and I believe it is because, at that time, he believed his own lies.
He told me later that he got to a point where that was actually happening. Just a thought for all of us who test our SA’s.Dear BT,
I want you to know that my husband (and if you read any of my posts you know he is a lovely man) ishere now repaetedly saying he will do anything I want? BUT a little over a year ago he would NOT do anything I wantedbecause he was busy with what he ACTUALLY wants, because it is apparently ‘fun”? It was not very much fun for me..
You sayyour husband does not believe in recovery plans, seems to have trouble with financial plans, and has lied your entire marriage? Polygraphs aside…I am wondering what part of this marriage makes you feel safe in ANY way? I do not understand…the ONLY contradiction I see you making here is mixing up 12 step cosa avoidance with the advice on this site? Do you really care if your husband thinks you are controlling at this point??? He needs YOUR DAD to tell him how to manage his money? Do you NOT understand that if you do not DEMAND what you need from him you will never get it, OR even if you do you STILL may never get it??
Why are you confused BT?? It is survival of the fittest UNTIL they show you different? Has your husband shown you ANY reason why you should drop your guard? Why you should not INSIST on a polygraph immediately? You have to answer these questions BT BUT isvery good you are asking them. BIG HUG Karen xxHi Bt,
I learned something very important and eye opening to me very, very recently. Even though I had people telling me over and over again (my CSAT, his CSAT, other SA wives), it just didn’t sink in until I had gotten so frustrated I had thrown in the towel – they told me to leave his recovery to him and to him alone. It was at that point that he actually took it over. I had been so damn frustrated because, while he was sober and attending meetings and seeing a CSAT that was all he was doing, he just had no “oomph” in his recovery. It took a month of me not saying a word about it and working on ME and he found a sponsor last week, developed his rough draft for his “circles” and began working his first step.
All that being said, I don’t think it hurts at all to help finding the resources. If your sink is stopped up, you’ll help find a plumber to call. If he wants to learn how to work an iMac, you’ll pick a book to help get him started. It’s when it becomes “Did you do this” or “Why didn’t you do that” when it can become dangerous, I think. I did that terribly. I policed like a fiend – big mistake!!
For me, a boundary agreement has been my saving grace. It helps make me feel safe and secure. I wrote it and had him sign it and I plan on renewing it every year with revisions as necessary – one revision I discovered the need for not to long ago. I also did a “common” sense agreement after the official boundary agreement. They both have consequences set in place accordingly. I’ve only had to enforce the BA once and the common sense…twice? I think…that was back in the beginning months of his recovery.
Hope my rambling helped a bit 🙂
Hugs,
SSShit BT,
Just read your OTHER post girl…that you are filing? I guess you do know what you need forhis recovery after all? I am REALLY sorry! GIANT HUG Karen xx
Oh kmf, no problem. He has made significant changes, but I was not convinced he had really changed in some much needed areas. Also, if he changed completely, I do not know if I can stay. No offense taken!!! I worry that I am like a battered woman, so I need people to keep me in reality…to challenge me. Bring it on and I will sort out what to keep and what to discard. I appreciate TRUE concern and honesty. Our relationships don’t grow if we are not transparent with each other! Love ya bunches, B. Trayed
Thank you SS!!! Except my h would not have done anymore. He wanted this BEHIND him as fast as possible. Your approach would not have worked for us. In April, I went on an intensive counseling “retreat” for a few days. From that point on, almost 100%, I did not plead, beg or cry for more change. So I gave up on him changing anymore a while ago. Since I filed, his ears and eyes have been healed…now he hears my concerns more clearly and sees what I see. Being quiet and even separation did not get through to him like I needed. Interestingly, I did not file for divorce to change him AT ALL. I thought it was over, and I am glad I did not do it to manipulate or change him AT ALL!!!! But I appreciate your suggestion. Please keep giving me them!!! Love ya, B. Trayed
Hi B. T. ,
You have really good instincts and you know when you are feeling loved and respected consistently and I think that’s really all you need to know right now. When you filed, you were doing it for you… That wasn’t a threat to get your husband to change his behavior, that was you speaking your truth… And he heard it. The fact that his behavior didn’t
change when you begged and pleaded,
didn’t change when you were quiet and
dignified, didn’t change when you
separated….he’s telling you who he is
and what that behavior said is that your
feelings aren’t important to him when
you are actually IN his life, but they
matter greatly to him for his own reasons
that have nothing to do with you, or
your feelings, when you are not in his
life.That isn’t a very good prognostic sign
for any decent life for you. So take a
deep breath and take your time while you
decide whether or not you want him to
have yet another chance. And take as
much time as you need, but stay safe
from any bullying and manipulation and
guilt while you are thinking about it. If
you are separated, stay that way. If you
decide to tell him this is what you need
his recovery to look like in order to
consider any future, be specific and followup with with what you say you will do if it doesn’t. I think it sound like he had told you over and over who he is, what his priorities are, and whether he is capable of change and you know in your heart that he isn’t your guy, b.t. If your heart needs more time to process that, take it, b.t. And don’t rush into any more “chances” or reconciliation talk. Take as long as you need to be comfortable. Dr. Weiss told me, when women know, they just know, and there’s no going back.
Thinking about you,
Love,
MarieHi,
The lawyer/assistant filled the papers in my county on
Aug. 31. My lawyer and counselor advised me to file BEFORE telling my h, which I agreed upon. I told my h on a Friday and they were going to serve him the papers on the following Tuesday or Wednesday. I emailed the assistant and asked if I could hold off for a few days. She said that would not be a problem. She told me that I have 90 days from filing to have him served. She wanted me to keep her abreast (strange word to use on this site!) on what I wanted to do. I made a plan to update/email her every Monday regarding my situation. She is very nice and patient. My lawyer called me the other day to see how I was doing and what my thoughts were. Of course I could withdraw and repay the $150 filing fee if I need to, but that would not make sense. The position I am in is the best thing for me, I guess. Tonight has been hard. My h is so kind, especially now…taking full responsibility for my pain. (I was just crying.) Everything is feeling confusing. But, I am here and I have to accept my situation.He got a potential job offer with General Motors in the art department. The thought of him passing by and potentially enjoying the bodies of so many people (large company) and working with some beautiful, stylish artsy women was too much for me. He really has me believing he is done with compulsive masterbation, lust and stuff, but I find it extremely painful to live in this world, knowing his previous urges and interests. It just hurts really bad right now, even if he is doing great. xo B.
Dear BTrayed< I think Marie is very wise and dead on. His behavior tells you what you need to know….My husband is also being very kind, but when I lived with him in Asia and he had countless young women in my bed the entire time….he was not kind. He was cruel. Why would he change now? Because he is afraid, because there is something in it for him. because he want me and he wants to be a pervert too, because he didn’t think I would ever pull back…WHO KNOWS??? I just know he cannot have possibly been that terrible then and SUDDENLY be so nice now….though he was nice for many, many years.The upshot is he always thought he had the right to lie and do as he pleased and he knew he was doing things that would really hurt me.He has the ability to live completely in the moment. When he is with me…he is with me but when he is with them…he doesn’t think of me? That does not make for a good husband and having the knowledge that your husband is constantly lusting after other women does not make for a healthy marriage?
It is all very painful. 🙁 Karen xxThanks Marie and Karen. Thank you for your comments. My situation is very complex because he has been sexually sober for about 2.5 years and he repeatedly says he doesn’t want to ever do that again…compulsive lust and masterbation, lying and deceit. On one side of the list he would overwhelm all of you with certain changes he has made, but (prior to divorce disclosure) the other side of the list was pathetic. So it complicates things! Now, the bad list is completely gone because his lightbulb turned on OR he is just scared to live without me. So the complexity goes on, but like Marie said, I will take my time. He said I really shocked him by filing for divorce, but I reminded him that I was talking and telling him that some crucial things were not working for me, even though some were. I mentioned numerous times that his best friends and parents were moving him closer and closer to divorce. He paid no attention. The signs were there, he just tuned them out. (Plus we NEVER talk divorce in our family, which I determined only allows men to mistreat their wives with no way out. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I think some of my lightbulbs are turning on too!) Thank you for your support! Love, B. Trayed
Yes Marie, that he did not hear some crucial requests PRIOR to the divorce is very telling. I am trying not to be naive or believe my fairy tale is finally coming true. I am cautious and trying to keep his 20 years of cruelty before my eyes, even though it feels impossible he could do that most of the time.
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