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Such an interesting thread. Karen, I’m happy you will see Minwalla. Why can’t there be a Minwalla in every decent-sized city in this country? And Australia and the UK? I just wrote a long post on the disclosure thread. I see from this thread that the disclosure day, because it was run so open-endedly for me, honoring whatever I wanted to make of it, was healing for me because I was able to express my pain about abandonment with both the counselors present to validate my feelings in front of my still-partially-lost husband. Teri, your last line has me lol. I saw the picture of you with your dear children. I think we have all come to love all three of you so much. Thank you for posting the pictures.
Dear Bev,
Very astute and probably correct and I almost posted something similar myself last night. I was reflecting about when I left Borneo and left my husband. We were apart for 18 months. In truth we are apart most of the time, because of his job. As a matter of fact, we have been together for longer periods (8 weeks) in the last 18 months because of him having 2 heart surgeries, my parents dying ect. When I left Asia, I was in a blind, cold rage. I left to protect myself but also to hurt my husband. On some level, I know that if that had been it, I suspect I would have ended up consumed by bitterness and rage and despair. My idea to remain married and attempt to achieve some sort of financial security has had one benefit. It has bought me time. I am proud of what I have accomplished in that time without the real benefit of therapy( not stationary enough), drugs, or homicide. I no longer wake up in the morning twisted by pain, I can be around my H and be kind and calm, I no longer have outbursts of rage where I call him every filthy thing under the sun, and I catch myself quickly if I feel myself being drawn into any discussions that involve me convincing him what he did or should do. My kids are no longer afraid to be in the same room as us. I healed myself to this point with this forum, books (in the beginning), time, and my own resilience. I know that I have experienced personal growth. I also know it is not yet over. He owes me more than he gave me. He did horrible things and while he doesn’t deny what he did, he has not taken responsibility for them. I have not told him a great deal about Minwalla and I don’t intend to. He probably thinks he is supporting me, though he knows he will have to explain his part. If I am correct, and he has a character disorder, he will not be able to handle what Minwalla asks of him- any of it? I also want the Dr to test him for a personality disorder. I know I could be wrong- I am not a shrink and I am not objective. In the end, I would like to have some idea who I have been married to for so many years of my life. And I want him to sit and hear exactly what he did to me. I think that would be tremendous closure for me. I don’t even care if he accepts it…I just want him to hear it from someone other than me.
If I end this marriage, I want it to be on good terms. My husband has been a lousy husband but I suspect he could be a good ex and a half decent father with the right kind of support. I need him to be fair financially and to continue to be fair. I need him to be there for our youngest son for I don’t want to carry the potential for his early death all by myself. Yesterday, he surprised me by asking if any woman can ever forgive this. I explained that most are not given a chance to even try because forgiveness will never come without hard work on the perpetrators part- true remorse,validation, amends and a sincere effort to become a different man. I said even then I didn’t know. I cannot see myself forgiving my husband as a wife- I know I have begun to forgive him as a person. It’s a real trip – this being the long term wife of a SA/PD/ BIG ASSHOLE /MAN CHILD or whatever the hell these guys are. I’ve gone through all this. I may as well try to summon the energy for one remaining thing that has the potential to benefit me one way or the other. Great post Bev. Thank you. Karen xxKaren so well said. I know we have had several discussions on this board about forgiveness and I have long given up the idea that forgiveness means reconciliation. I am impressed that some of you have done what you have done in such a short period of time. March 12th 3 years ago was the day that my son and I discovered the first video and although I have come a long way since, the fallout continues. I must admit that my rage has subsided significantly since I decided that I could face a divorce and that there were far worse things in the world. I also think that fearlessness is what has opened up my mind to going to see Minwalla with him. I don’t like or use the word closure for myself but I understand it in the context it is being used here. It is one thing to not know about your H’s crazed and truly creepy behavior, but once you do the moral ambiguity that invades your life is paralyzing. I have only recently been able to completely put down ownership of his terrible choices and I DO have a good therapist. The systemic impact of this behavior is unfathomable and the treatment protocols a guarantee that more harm will be done to the victims while the perpetrators are held us as victims of ill health. I have to tell you I have lost all of my liberal positions on things like the death penalty and rehabilitation – and I never thought I would hear myself say that. I am hopeful that Minwalla will keep me focused and support me in my decision to have the courage to let go of a relationship that H is hanging onto for dear life for all the wrong reasons. I DO think that in time we could be good friends – we had that once – but I don’t have any desire to ever be sexual with him again and I don’t think God is going to fix that – only Hugh Jackman or maybe Daniel Craig – I know I have said that before but they are who I am holding our for when their beautiful wives dump them:-) Meg
When their beautiful wives dump them LOL Meg.
Meg I have to ask why do you think he wants to reconcile? Is it because he is uncomfortable with his sexuality and being ‘married’ is a public image he wants?
I’m not suggesting he doesn’t love you because you are completely loveable but didn’t he make you move out of your home. Excuse me if I have the wrong sister.Karen and Meg- I always love reading your posts. My coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, so I have nothing intelligent to say. But both of you are so intelligent and insightful. I always learn something from you both.
Well I just want to say I’m having the best love making I’ve ever had in my life. So don’t sell yourself short, Meg. Mind you, my ex was my only lover, so the bar was kind of low, perhaps, but life with a man who is truly present to you is a powerful turn-on. It’s like a sex toy you don’t have to order online, and it leaves both pairs of hands free.
I’m now a firm believer that people SHOULD have sex before they marry anyone. If I had some experience, I might have recognized something was off because I would have had something to compare it to. I’m dead serious about this.
That was an amazing post, Bev. My husband called Dr. M a few weeks ago and said he was “fantastic” and I found out later was on board to go to the 4 day session for learning about partner trauma. I thought WTF? What good will that do if you aren’t in recovery, don’t have recovery people, a plan of some sort? So I called Dr/ M and he said my husband needed the 9 day program, followed by the 4 day program. I said he would not agree to that because based on what my husband had told him, he had already recommended the 4 day. Then Dr. M said that the best choice might be to schedule a 3 day couple’s intensive with him. When I talked to my husband about that, he said he would think about it. He got back to me after a few days and said yes, and then launched into a monologue about how Dr. M would make me see that “you’re not doing your part” and that “my recovery is fine” ( if he’s doing ANYTHING for recovery, I am not aware of it), and that he can’t and won’t “give up his life the way I would expect”, and that it’s not reasonable to expect no more flirtation, nudity in viewing choices, etc. I decided in that moment that I would not go to California with him, would not sit down with him one more time to hear that blaming, resentful, my life would be fine if you just …. stuff. I said I was going to do the partner intensive, and he could do or not do whatever he wants without me. He is doing a one day trauma thing on the 30th at Dr. Minwalla’s, and has some private sessions on April 1st and 2nd.
After reading this thread, and Trish’s experience, etc., I am almost wishing ( I think the closure stuff Bev talked about?) that I had the stomach to go through that blaming and anger one more time, and had just done the three day couple’s intensive. But then I think about being there with him and listening to that, and I don’t know that I could do it. I had visions of Bev’s situation where he went to Dr. M without her and did his work, without her, but then I remember how her husband abused her in that process of marriage counseling without the comforting presence of Dr. M and his validation, and I’m glad that he had a positive experience with Dr. M, but my heart hurts for all of the abuse she took
And my heart hurts for Trish, having to listen again to all of that anger and blaming, but I’m glad for the outcome.
My heart hurts for every woman on here, for all of the abuse and blame and anger we take for what is entirely their crap.
Bev’s right….I need closure, for those anger and blaming issues, and crazily enough, to know there’s a chance or no chance for the relationship, and I can’t even explain that to myself. I know that I am more sad and anxious thinking about being at the 3 day intensive with him that I am when I think about not going to one with him, so that’s what I went with. I am hoping for some closure at the partner intensive, that’s independent of anything my husband does or says.I completely agree with you on the premarital sex, Diane.
Courtney, you are doing just fine taking care of you. Don’t second guess yourself. He and he alone is responsible for himself. You told him about it, he spoke with Minwalla, and he made his decision. It is not your job to get him to change his mind. It is your job to know your limits and what you need to take care of yourself. You’re good.
courtney, i hurt for you too. my fuddled brain can’t seem to focus very well. are you going on your own then? and he’s going at a different time? but i can tell that you are facing some very difficult things, girl, and you are facing them head on and on your terms. proud of you.
Lisa, you make me laugh. Yes, he’s going out by himself at the beginning of April and I go to the intensive end of April.
Amen Lisa! pre and post! something has to make up for what happens in the middle!
courtney, I understand not wanting to endure any more of his terrible shit directed at you. Whatever you do, you do it for yourself. He’s a first class fucker. I hate that he said those things to you.
Courtney I think that Bev’s marriage counselling sessions where her husband blamed her for everything came before his intensive with Minwalla. Please correct me if I am wrong Bev.
From what Trish said the blaming and anger is cut very short by Minwalla and I think to have your husband held accountable for what he has done with you present could be very therapeutic for you.
I don’t much care for what happens to your H but if he is shown who he really is, that they were his choices and have nothing to do with you and if Minwalla can get the core of why he is the way he is then maybe there is some hope he can change.
Courtney even if you don’t stay together you will have some sort of relationship with him and I think you should make this as easy as possible for yourself. You will be fine on your own and you are doing fine on your own but I think that you do need him to be accountable for what he has done for your own peace. xoxo Catherine“He got back to me after a few days and said yes, and then launched into a monologue about how Dr. M would make me see that âyouâre not doing your partâ and that âmy recovery is fineâ ( if heâs doing ANYTHING for recovery, I am not aware of it), and that he canât and wonât âgive up his life the way I would expectâ, and that itâs not reasonable to expect no more flirtation, nudity in viewing choices, etc.”
I can clearly see why you didn’t want to go with him. đ Just the same, if you did, he might say all those ridiculous things and Minwalla might call him on it, without you ever opening your mouth. I suppose you just don’t feel safe enough right now to chance it. I understand that. I’m afraid too…not of what my husband says or doesn’t say…but just of doing something different I guess. Karen xx
My H drug me to MC for a year before I knew anything about any infidelity. We had 2 HUGE fights beginning of summer 2010 ( kids were visiting my parents). After the second fight ( which I could not make heads or tales of) I left his ass asleep, packed a bag and went to a hotel. I sent him a text the next day and told hm if he tried to contact me I would file for divorce ( it was a big ugle fight and I was NOT putting up with that kind of behavior from anybody). I waited til Monday morning, came home and packed my shit and left for my parents house. ….
I only returned home with the kids under the condition that he se a therapist ( I thought his angry behavior was stemming from not ever dealing with his childhood shit). He agreed. His counselor suggested we see a MC. I agreed to try it and that is when I truly though I was losing my mind. We danced the crazy dance for a year.
I found the Holiday Inn “rate our services” letter in January 2012. I started digging and confronted him Feb.24 2012. He begged ,pleaded, etc…I was in shock and I didn’t do anything much except read Patrick carnes books, rage and cuss at patrick carnes and finally found the Sisters. I kicked him out of the house twice and didn’t let him back the second time until I had a confirm a Minwalla date. He went in July of 2012.
He is a completely different person.
Courtney, you do what is right for you because no matter how good or different or whatever my H is ,it does NOT erase the pain of what he did to me.
Minwalla would NEVER let your h get away with that BS courtney. You may not want to be around for it and I get that.
One thing I learned at Dr. Minwalla Partner intensive is that “couples therapy” is contraindicated if there is not sobriety. If there is still ANY confusion about what sobriety means to the SA and a concrete plan is not in place, a partner can be further traumatized by hamhanded methods to “teach” intimacy.
Hi Noco,
we’s sisters figured that one out all on our own a few years ago and have been preaching it every since. Sometimes I think we could train these people.
Also, Noco, I’m enjoying your intelligent participation. Your posts are really helpful. Thanks for stepping up.Glad to hear Minwalla gets that. But, yeah, many of us here have learned it the hard way (including me).
My therapist today just told me about one of the tasks that Carnes came up with that CSATs use is the Personal Craziness Inventory. I’m glad that people get help from it, but just google it and read it- it’s just basic dumbass life skills- eat regular meals, brush your teeth, put away your clothes.
Good lord, it makes my head hurt that grown men would need this. Are these guys really this inept?
Does Minwalla use Carnes’ 30 tasks or whatever for treatment of SA’s?
I think I need to clarify that our visit was not so much a couple intensive but rather an extended consultation, to slow us both down, get some grounding, and a starting plan before jumping off the cliff to divorce. Dr. Minwalla asked that I come too, to cut through my H’s BS so that we could accomplish more in the 3 short days then he could if he had only my H’s story – which according to Minwalla was a very short narrative with no details and whole lot of defenses. So…this really had nothing to do with “us” per say. Just getting a plan to get my h real help. The plus was that when Minwalla spelled it out, my sah had a lightbulb/aha moment where he began to see what his acting out has actually caused – not what he has perceived. The 9 day intensive that I hope he is going back to in April is where the real work begins. Minwalla was also going to consult with Dr. Amos here in NC to get the treatment ball rolling with some continuity with what he and Tim discussed in CA. I will keep you all posted. Tim is at Dr. Amos’ right now.
Courtney, in my non-professional opinion, your H needs a year long, locked room (rubber hose & thumb screws) Minwalla “intensive.” 9 days? Not nearly long enough. He is a HUGE asshole. I really hate him.
Bev, it is an absolute fucking miracle that you allowed your H to live after what he did to you. He should be thanking you daily that he is still breathing.
One of the deepest regrets of my life is that I’ve only had sex with this one man. Who’d have thought? I was always very proud of that fact. Now I feel like I’ve inadvertently fucked a whole army of strangers. I honestly can’t see myself ever wanting to have sex again.
Daisy, I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. Our culture is so hyperfocused on sex, having good sex, having regular sex, blah blah blah.
I am in no rush. If and when I meet someone I would like to be intimate with, then fine. But I am going to wait to have the spiritual, emotional, and physically intimate sex that I deserve. And if I don’t meet anyone who measures up, that’s okay.
I know if I had stayed with STBX, though, I would not have had sex again ever. I really don’t think I would be able to trust him on that level ever again.
Daisy, I am going to hope that after disclosure, you are going to move on, and find someone who will appreciate and value you and treat you like the goddess you are.
me, too, one sexual partner. Dr. Minwalla did call what he was talking about an extended consultation, Trish, and told me the point would be that he would be able to get my husband to see that he needed the entire treatment, said he wanted 3 days because he “wouldn’t want to leave my husband in the angry phase”, wanted him to work that out before leaving California. After my husband started saying that stuff, I thought I just can’t do it. I’m going to try and take Teri’s advice and not second guess myself:)
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