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I think that the best residential rehab will challenge, and help transform thinking patterns and bad behaviour. Its not just about getting sober – its about changing thinking.
Its about becoming more spiritual and slowing down and altering thinking. I do believe this is the only way people will begin to change, and I also think its really hard for families to believe that change. After all – we have been lied to for so long that it is hard to rebuild trust, and suspend disbelief.
I know that my husband while he began to change through recognition of the problem, and starting to work the 12 step programme – his patterns of thinking havent really changed. He still minimises, justifies and projects. He will still lie to protect his wants and desires. He is better than he was but sadly for us, too much damage has been done.
I believe this is the where the right challenge and intervention in residential does make the difference. I work really closely with a 12 step based residential drug and alcohol rehab and this is their thinking. Seeing those character flaws in that way is what will change the inner being.
For me, the cutting out of the cancer of this addiction has just left insufficient fabric in our marriage to restitch anything back together. We would have to start again. but I need lots of water under the bridge and to refind me before I can even go there.
I believe if the addict wants to change for themselves – does the work on their character defects, and puts their sobriety first – they will succeed. BUT this is where it becomes really difficult. If they are using their 12 step programme openly and honestly with you and their sponsor – the secrecy is gone. If they are using it to replace their previous secret life – you are dead in the water. The need for control is still there.
Marriage is hard because it involves two people with different perspectives, different needs. One who has every idea of what it should healthily look like who has had their trust blown out of the water – one who has a limited childlike view of what it should look like and if it doesnt conform to what they think it should be – cant cope.I dont know but I think there is hope but would say that only if the action is really matching the word and the behaviours are changing – consistently – and you are strong with your personal boundaries, guard your heart but dont get cynical, stay open and take baby steps to showing your desire for them to win and overcome – will you be able to reestablish intimacy. Be bold and courageous – maybe? Just make sure you hold him accountable. If he wont be held accountable with the truth and honesty – then its game over!
Caveat to the above – this is my personal opinion. I moved toward intimacy with my h several times – only to run away again. You’ve got to be as fearless as a tiger if you want it – I think. And he also has to be prepared to hear you – feel your thoughts and not feel shamed, punished or rejected. He has to demonstrate his commitment to intimacy too – Make sense?
Yes Jos, makes a lot of sense! Couple that (pun intended) with what Deb said about SA’s difficulty with intimacy and why they seek out the acting out partners they do and it’s easy to see why so many of these relationships fail.
Claire, I don’t know your story but I for one don’t think you’re crazy for staying or at least no crazier than any of us are as we try to figure this mess out. I swing back and forth almost hourly on whether my H and I can work this out. The hardest part for me is that he has been a huge part of my life for over thirty years and I can’t imagine who would replace him. H and I were literally best friends for several years before we started a romantic relationship. We dated for 7 years, have been married for 23. My brain just sort of shuts down when I try to imagine my life with him completely out of it. As I said elsewhere, he has not engaged in the terrible mind games that so many of these men have tormented their partners with so that makes it easier too. But…on the other hand, he is the only man I’ve been with sexually and that part of our relationship is so damaged that it’s hard to imagine that it can be healed. So do we stay married but without physical intimacy? I just don’t know. I’m only a couple months in and we haven’t started couple’s counseling yet, just seeing our individual therapists. It’s all so very confusing.
Claire,
I know I’m very vocal about my need to be AWAY from my SAH. However, I was on this site as just Lynn just after discovery, and I was really, really trying to make it work. So much so that I shared a tool we were using for building intimate bonds, the essential oils, on Anderson Cooper. You can’t go any more public about the fact that you are staying and trying to work through things with your SA. I said on the show when AC asked me directly what I was going to do: I said “Preparing for the worst, and hoping (and actually working really hard) for the best.” What else is there to do?
And it was, in my mind, a successful thing at the time. So much so that I even stopped logging on here. I felt like I was being affected by a lot of negativity and I was bringing those expectations into our relationship when we should be moving forward.
But as Jos said, if they can’t be held accountable and be honest, there’s no hope. And that’s where we hit a bump in the road. I realized a lot of minimizing and blame shifting was going on. And SAH was skipping group meetings, and “forgeting” counseling. He was beginning to say things like “I’m glad that’s over”, and it was apparent he had no intent of actually changing, just doing the time and getting his “I did 12-step” badge. He was sorry, yes, but as his “agreement” shows pretty plainly, he was and is still in denial about how bad he actually is. He thinks he’s been successful in hiding it from the world, and to a degree he obviously has. But the person most deluded is him.
Then the torture porn showed up, after I’d been standing beside him publically and privately for 5 months. And it cascaded to a lot of other things that had not been disclosed, and a lot of behavior that was still going on. I was devastated. It was so much worse than the first DDay. And the feeling that ruled my life was actual fear. That was crossing the line, and that was the absolute end of us. I was just waiting for the opportunity to get out without having what I knew would be a very, very dangerous confrontation. That chance was given me, and here I am.
I definitely do not think anyone is crazy for trying everything they can. But you know when the gig is up. I hope you guys are successful, and if not, you’ll know.
Lynn
Lynn,
I feel for you. I’ve watched your story from day one and I’ve cried for you.
Of course, I wish we could all have happy endings. But the odds of any of us staying and making it work is so low.
I pray that you survive your ordeal the best way possible for you and that you can live the rest of your life knowing you did all that you could to make it work.
In the end, we have to do what’s right for us, what’s healthy for us, and what makes us feel safe.Much love, Claire
Lynn – I’m so sorry. A second D-day that was worse than the second? I can’t even imagine (but know that it could happen to me, too).
Daisy – I, too, can’t imagine a life without my husband who has been my best friend for 25 years (well – not counting last year). But I’m forcing myself to imagine it just in case. It’s not all that bad. I realize that if he screws up then I can love the healthy part of him that is no longer there. The memories. The question is which will win? The healthy or the mentally ill part? That’s what I’m waiting to see. I think it’s an amazing struggle for most and only the ones that put enormous effort into it and value the outcome, win.
So – to that end, I don’t think that a relapse will shock me – but it’s a deal breaker. I’ve told him that, and I am firm about that. I realize that their SA stuff isn’t personal, but it is as I value and want a monogomous marriage. I know that I could never have a relationship with the same history but I know that I can find someone that I enjoy, love and that cherishes me – and importantly – who is not ill to the point of injuring those he loves.
So – I’m hopeful that my husband can do it – he seems committed, is transparent, is working the steps, goes to two meetings a week, and is beginning to get in touch with the incest of his childhood (he had a dream last night involving his mother which seems to have opened up the floodgates).
But, in the meantime, I’m getting healthy, independent and loving myself. It’s too bad that a horrific experience had to happen to get me on this path – but it’s a good to be here.
I’d love to share the good, the bad and the ugly with all of you. I feel that every time someone has a good thing to report, there tends to be the “oh….that’s happened to me, too – but it was a lie – or you just wait”. I know that’s done to protect our dear sisters….and that’s a good thing…but at the same time, I think it’s important for us to celebrate the good times without complete skepticism. Lynn and Terri – please don’t stop telling your stories – we all need them to protect ourselves from what might happen. But I would love to hear positive stories, too.
Deb
I swear my H is becoming a different person. He has taken off work to be with the family. He handles all the kid`s “problems” with patience and understanding. He is listening to me and actually hearing what I say. He is walking the dogs with me each morning. In short, he is becoming a person you would actually enjoy spending time with. I attribute most of this shift to Dr. Minwalla.
H broke down crying on our walk and thanked me for staying with him this long. He has signed over financial holdings to me. He told me that he would get on his knees and beg me to marry him again ( he knows I would say no). He says I saved his life.
All that being said, I still cannot tell you all that it is enough. I cannot tell you that I can forgive. I am at peace with myself right now. I have my horrible days and some bad moments but they are less intense and less frequent. I don`t know what I am going to do. It`s funny but I have no fear of him “acting out”. He may be f`n a hooker as I type but it doesn`t create any fear in me. I tried to tell him a million times before DDay ( when he was torturing me with marriage counseling and all my fault stuff) that my biggest fear was that I would stop caring. Maybe that`s what has happened. IDK, but I feel no fear…..just sadness. He is willing to be intimate and I am not.
He has a sponsor ( I googled the guy) and the sponsor said I could call and talk to his wife. The sponsor ( Bill) insists that “his guys” only attend meetings that he goes to so he can keep tabs of what goes on at the meetings. I have not called. Nor have I monitored any phones, computers, or whereabouts….
I`m not ready to to file for divorce. I don`t want a separation ( although the plan is in place if I choose it), but I am not ready to be a couple again. I don`t really know what I want at this point. I find myself happy at times and that scares me. I am now able to function somewhat and that surprises me. It`s such babysteps…I am thankful when I can get up in the morning and get the kids to school and walk the dogs without a panic attack or throwing up.
A slow process leading to the unknown…
I still say that Minwalla was worth every penny just for the positive changes in the relationships with father and children. I feel that even if divorce is the final outcome that I have a decent shot at dealing with a human being and a good father. Minwalla did change his thinking.
Sorry, if this is all scrambled. It seemed it was bottling up inside me and it just all came out at once. I`m just glad you all are here to listen 🙂
And Bev, I’m just glad as all get out that you’re finding some much-deserved happiness each day. Love you girl, Liza
Thanks Liza:)
I am really afraid that I just don`t care anymore ( about him). I don`t know why that is scary but it is….I care in a humane way, but not in a way that lovers and partners care. It`s very confusing. I can`t even say “I love you” to my own husband.
I was only telling my story to Claire to say I am definitely one who does not think she’s crazy. If not for extreme circumstances I’d be in the battle with you both, still.
Lynn, I can’t figure out if your H is the spawn of satan or just a very, very mentally ill dude. Either way, you could not possibly stay with him. Extreme circumstances is an understatement.
Big {{{Hugs}}} to you,
DaisyI remain personally on the fence, though I think I am still willing to consider a future with my h if it did not mirror the past (this has been a long, drawn out battle of apparent steps forwards, then fresh discoveries that where worse than the previous ones). I reviewed Dr Minwalla information. How much is his two week intensive? I have a meeting next week with my H as a follow-up to a confrontation last week where I presented documentation of his secret life (we are separated). It is now time for him to choose option A (continue pursuing his secret life and divorce me) or B (wholehearted devotion to recovery and potential reconciliation). If he mouths the words of B then I will request immediate lie detector test, STD test, and perhaps this 2-week intensive. I want to believe a future different from the past can occur, but have no trust in my h words at present. I suspect those three request will cause him to return to option A, even if he didn’t choose it first.
I strongly support passionately pursing healing and restoration of marriage, and am eager to hear good news from Claire, hurtandconfused, and others.
Dear Northern, Everyone on this site ( that I am aware of) strongly and passionately pursued repairing their marriage. All the news is not good and most of the SA`s were not interested in cooperating.
Do not take the seemingly harsh remarks made by some sisters at times ( myself included) as though they just waltzed away from their marriages without a care in the world…
That being said, I hope your H appreciates the chance you are willing to give him. The poly and the STD test should not faze him if he wants to stay with you. If he is not interested in staying there isn`t much you can do. I am so sorry you are going thru this mess. It is so painful and I will pray it works out for you.
northern,
i believe you have every right to insist upon those things. girl, you get whatever you need! insist upon it!
now is the time. i wouldn’t wait to ask for these things, he may agree easier now, than in a few months. and it takes some time to plan attending a centre, so starting now could be good.
i don’t know how much minwalla’s intensive is, but they are fucking expensive. luckily, my SA’s parents paid for his. (they should, in my opinion, i think it’s mostly because of them that he is in his present state).
i believe he might resist the treatment centre, but if you insist upon it, make it clear that it is a non negotiable, he will most likely go, and come back an improved man, no matter what happens with the two of you…
You can call Minwalla. He will speak to you and your husband for free. He is a very nice and genuine person. I actually like the guy. I even called him to talk about me. He spent 2 phone calls listening to me and helping me fight panic attacks and never charged me a dime.
I honestly never doubted all here have fought hard…fighting passionately seems imbedded in who we are as woman. I also painfully know fighting hard doesn’t guarantee a saved/healthy/happy marriage. I am fairly certain mine will not remain intact and I have fought damn hard (perhaps too hard for too long) for many, many years. Though the scars are deep and exhaustion has set in for me, I am encouraged by testimonies of woman whose husbands are engaged and hope is alive within their marriages.
Bev, I apologize that my first remark caused you and perhaps others to feel I was inferring anyone carelessly or half hazardly walked away from their marriage. Marriage is intended to be mutually loving and safe, and when those are ripped away by the nightmares we have faced…then the vows are broken! We are freed to choose the next steps -given our unique & complex individual realities. Again, sorry.
Oh Northern, Please don`t apologize. I understand completely what you were saying. No worries 🙂
There are some H`s that are engaged ( mine included) and maybe there is hope. I don`t have the answers. I think it is just as hard either way.
I don’t know if there is hope, but I do know we all have it or did have it in some form, regardless. I don’t want to crush anyone’s hope that they will save their marriage. I tell my stories in the hope (there’s that word again) that no one will be caught off guard by a fake recovery like I was. To let you know that sometimes they can say and do all the right things, convince the experts, and still be screwing hookers. I am sorry if that has hurt anyone.
I admit, it is very hard to see people post hopeful things because it reminds me of when I felt that way. Many times I just hold my tongue or try to find something authentic I can say that is positive.
It’s not hard to do the math and know that many of you will have SA’s that won’t recover. I wish I could protect you all from that, but I know you have your own journeys to make, just as I have mine. And I really do hope for all of your future happiness- no matter what the SA’s do.
Don`t feel bad for posting your story Teri. It helps anybody with hope to stay grounded. It`s ok to hope and try. It`s not ok to be ignorant of the possibilities/probabilities.
Teri – we should start a “tricked by fake recovery” thread. I wonder how many are out there? The thing that I’m struggling is how in the world do they do it? After the first one, I’m sure we are much more vigilant, install E-blaster, etc., etc. Is there any way to know?
With alcohol, drugs, etc. it’s much easier to know.
I know that Dr. Minwalla does polys every 6 months for his guys in recovery. Has anyone considered or done that?
Deb
My H`s CSAT ask me if I wanted one. I figure it`s the closet you can get to the truth. It`s strange, I always knew when he was lying, I just never knew what he was lying about. Now, I`m not sure I know this “new” person. I declined the poly. I will ask for one on my own schedule , not his. I have a pretty good gut feeling he isn`t doing anything now…..
Keep in mind I could be VERY wrong. I am not monitoring anything…
Bev – that’s great that you knew he was lying. I never knew and was completely blown away with his revelation.
Minwalla does polys for the guys in his out-patient recovery program (ones who live in the area, I suppose).
I love your detachment.
I’m going to a “Boundaries” meeting tonight at my church. We will see if it’s any good.
Deb
I did not know he was lying about F’n around Deb!! I just knew he was lying ( he has always been a horrible liar). I had no clue what he was actually doing. In order to find out, I had to dig. That traumatized me. I never want to do that again and I won`t. So, maybe it isn`t actually detachment…more self preservation.
Since finding everything, I trust my gut implicitly now (should have before). If I just listen to myself then I seem to know what I need better than anyone 🙂
One of the women in my group counseling sessions (this was seven years ago) who stayed with her husband has been doing polygraphs every six months, and it seemed to be working for her the last time I heard, which was about three years ago.
I agree that there is really no way to tell for sure if they are faking it, or hiding shit you just don’t know about and telling you ‘little’ truths to keep you off base.
If I cared I would definitely do polys. ~ JoAnn
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