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Hi I’m new to this, and not sure if this is the right way to post or not.
I am still with my SA, and we are about 4 months post dday. We’ve been through an intensive with a polygraph.
My husband passed the poly, proving that he had told me everything.
His history is that he would look at porn about 3-4 times per week (max), and went to a massage parlor to get hand jobs about 10 times over two years. He never had intercourse with anyone else since we’ve been together (8 years). He did have a history of other behaviors before we got together. (Of course, I had not idea of any of that.)
He is committed to doing what he needs to do for recovery, and so far has been staying on track with that. He claims to not have any real urges, and says that sobriety is “easy” for him right now. (WTH?? If you could stop that easily, why didn’t you?)
Anyway, my question is this . . . are there any positive stories? Does it ever happen that the addict gets help, stays in recovery, and stays sober?
I want to believe there’s hope. But I’m worried that this is just a pipe dream and I’m setting myself up for more pain.
Do they ALWAYS slip? Honestly, I could handle a “slip” with porn, I guess. But any in real life activity? No way.
Am I wrong to even try? He’s been incredibly supportive, and has never blamed me at all in any way for any of this mess. He gets frustrated from time to time, but tries hard not to be defensive, and rarely is. Also, i did not catch him myself, though I was growing a little suspicious, feeling something just wasn’t quite right. He came clean on his own to me, and initiated getting himself help.
Even with all that, I realize the negative is huge. I’m not in denial – he’s got a major problem, and it will not be easy to overcome for either of us. Even if he never acts out again, just the pain and the damage from what’s been done is enormous.
I guess I just want to know if there is really EVER reason to hope?
Girl, I’m probably the wrong person to ask – to me HOPE is a 4-letter word. My best advice is to read the forums like it’s your day job – seriously start ALL the way back at the posts from the beginning of the ‘Hood. Three years and hundreds of Sisters later, I don’t think we have ANY success stories to speak of. As always, your mileage may vary. Sending you strength for the days ahead. Love, Liza
Sorry for the hell SA has put you through. Forgivable? That is the question you should really ponder.
These guys can pass polystyrene and still be lying. They only tell you what they get caught for unless an expert like Minwalla treats them over a period of time.
The big thing is that they LIE. Is that forgivable?
And , when you find out what they are like when they really are abstinent, you probably what like what you are faced with.
Beware that emotional and financial abuse may be what he is really about.
I hoped. I found out all of the above the hard way.
HOPE? I wouldn’t but if you do and most of us are wanting HOPE, get your legal financial house in order ASAP. Do it before you are sweetened up then WHAM fleeced.
Don’t tell him your worst fears. Don’t ask him ……. Just protect yourself by learning and observing.
Ok, here it is. It isn’t pretty or probably what you wanted to hear. First though GOOD for you for having him do a poly. Start stashing money and live like he will “slip” because he probably will… so sorry.
It is almost a sure thing from my perspective. I had a DDay 5 years ago with porn… thought it was only porn and was advised by friends and family to overlook. I told him it could never happen again. I had no idea what an SA was and didn’t do any good research. Not a deal breaker for me (should have been)
Then 2 years ago the big DDAy – more porn, over 8 years of sexting and meeting women (came out slowly for 2 months) I had conditions to stay this time. He had to goto therapy (what a joke. I went with him and at the first session the counselor said he needed to be addicted to me and suggested we make a home video if you know what I mean). He said he would never do it again and it was “easy” too. Well Nov 19th I found out he was doing it all along. UGH. Of course I kicked him out. No more, you CANNOT trust them. He swore up and down he didn’t do it. And he was the whole time …. and getting worse… 3 people, men, women 2-3 times a week.If you stay I would insist on financial consequences and a poly every 3 months … (w/ a different poly person). I would insist on full transparency and make NO compromises (looking at sex toys on line…. they never just look).
Good luck and so so so sorry. You do not deserve this. Please, please please assume it will happen again and protect yourself at all costs
Hello Missz,
I understand how terrible you feel, and how much you are looking for real hope that he will stop his sexual activities and your relationship can be saved.
What we discover is that even when there is success with the men being in recovery and not engaging in their penis activities (and these are very very few numbers), the capacity for these men for an adult relationship of mutual love and respect seems to be very low. They just aren’t who we thought they were, and that is so awful to discover.
The real hope lies within yourself for your own life and what it is worth. The “hopium” for a cure and a fresh start is very hard to resist, but leads to an awful lot of pain in most cases.That being said, almost all of us here tried to give our SA’s a chance to demonstrate that they could change. So don’t feel silly if you feel you need to do that. After three decades I couldn’t just walk away until I knew for sure that staying with him would be very bad for my sanity/health. YOu do what you have to do to know what your best options are.
But don’t get pregnant. Don’t give up a job. Don’t move away from friends and family. Instead make sure you have a plan B, in case the recovery doesn’t work. See a lawyer. Start a secret bank acct and stash money. Have an exit plan. Get a job or take a training course in order to get one. Use that “recovery” time for yourself, not just for him.
Some sites will have women talking about their new and improved marriages, but usually what they describe is not a relationship I would ever want. These men are deeply damaged, and usually have one or more personality disorders that become more active once they are not “medicated” with the sexual activities.
It’s a long, hard and steep learning curve. We will help you with everything we can.
warm hug on a tough journey,
Diane.What Diane said. Your H sounds like he is truly trying. He may succeed. But, since he is a self professed sex addict ( porn addict) then ALWAYS take Diane’s advice. Have a plan B in place and ready to go. Do not have children with him.
I definitely understand it’s not smart not to have an exit plan. I’m entirely financially independent, and have worked out a divorce plan that will be put into action immediately if specific boundaries are violated. He will essentially get his clothes and a few furniture items and get out the door. No need to sell my house, change my lifestyle, etc.
I realize that relapse rates are very high. But it can’t be zero. I mean, even the most deadly, untreatable diseases have a spontaneous remission rate!
I wonder if the women who’s husbands do well just stop posting on support boards? Are there different “levels” of addicts?
I ask not to challenge the experiences here, but just to try to really understand what I’m up against from people who have been there.
My SAH went years without acting out. His acting out was limited to viewing porn for about 10-15 mins, 3x per week. Until the last two years where he went to a massage parlor that offered hand jobs. (It’s a really reputable place that you would NEVER expect to offer that type of service.) He went back about 10 times over the course of two years.
I had no idea the massage thing was happening (of course). Porn? Well, I was one of those wives who believed if they looked at it sometimes, but it didn’t interfere with their lives, it wasn’t that big of a deal. He actually never hid that from me.
Now I know just how damaging porn really is, and I’d never be ok with it.
We’ve been together for 8 years. He’s been a great husband and dad, who has always treated me well. With the VERY, VERY big exception of the massage parlors, that is.
I will give him a chance to change. I’ve not forgiven him or promised any type of reconciliation at this point. Only his actions will tell.
We go back for follow up polygraphs every three months for the first year.
I AM hopeful, but cautiously so. I will not stay in an abusive relationship (and that’s what SA is all about). He either changes or he leaves, period.
Then you are going to be okay. I personally do not believe that this is a “disease”. I believe it’s fun to look at porn, masturbate, visit massage parlors for a hand job so they do it.
Yes, he can do this without a “slip”. Will he? That I do not know.
My H has been “sober” for over 2 years. Will he stay that way? I don’t know.
I do know that I don’t forgive him and that’s my problem. Sobriety is the easy part IMO.
Bev, I go back and forth on whether I think it’s a disease. I often wonder if he just did it because he wanted to and thought he would get away with it. His conscience got the better of him and he confessed it to me, but that doesn’t help me much.
There’s no way to know for sure if they’ll stay sober and I get that. There’s also no way to know if a guy who isn’t an SA will ever cheat.
Like you, I don’t forgive him yet. I’m not sure if I ever will, but if he doesn’t stay sober, that’s not really a question that I have to answer. I’ll worry about that when we get to a year or more of sobriety. I THINK I can forgive IF he stays in recovery and doesn’t engage in any of the abusive behaviors (not just the acting out, but the lying and gaslighting and all of that, too). I have a zero tolerance policy and he knows it.
I’m also an IT engineer. Just about everything you do leaves an elctronic trail, and I’m one of those people who can find it. I don’t want to waste my valuable time tracking him all of the time or anything like that, but if he’s screwing up, it’ll surface sooner rather than later, and I’ll take action based on that.
I understand completely about needing to know what your SA may be able to accomplish with recovery, and whether you are comfortable moving forward in life with him. No one here thinks you should be be cavalier about that decision.
YOur prep thinking sounds sensible and leaves open a place things working out for you and him. Well done. You are way ahead of where most of us of were at that point in the story.
It is true that some here have been studying this whole field for many years now, and do have some misgivings about the entire treatment model, it’s assumptions, process, and outcomes. The problem with counting on sobriety is that if there is an underlying personality disorder (or more), for example, the person you end up may not be anyone you can have a life with in any positive respect. This is the information that model never gives you. Go to Dr. OMar Minwalla’s site (ISH) and read all his articles on both partners and “addicts”. He is doing the most relevant work on uncovering the layers of dysfunction/disorder underneath the compulsive sexual behaviours. Those are the elements that will preclude a long and happy life together after sobriety is achieved.
Hang in there. I think you are doing really well, and I hope your guy will make it!
diane.
If he did confess without being busted I am genuinely interested in hearing how that came about. Can you share that with us missz?
That truly is a rarity. ~ JoAnn
He doesn’t sound like an addict to me. He watched some porn and he got a few hand jobs from skanky massage parlors. He has been a great husband and father and he says it’s easy to quit. He confessed to you.
I don’t see addiction here. I see cheater or jerk or whatever. But I don’t know how anyone diagnoses that as an addiction. He could obviously control it. That doesn’t mean he won’t ever do it again.
I don’t think you’re dealing with an addict. I think he should have just quit and left you out of it. He may have felt guilty but he made those choices…
What intensive did you both attend?
“Easy to quit”?
Big red flag. That is either a guy in denial or someone who is very narcissistic and selfish to do that to you and your family when it wasn’t compulsive.
Sorry, missz. I understand wanted to give him a chance. But if he is saying that, you better be careful, in my opinion.
The basis for calling it addiction is that he felt extreme guilt over it, and vowed to himself to never go back. But he did. 10 times in two years. Definitely compulsive. He also engaged in some screwy thinking to allow himself to go back. “Ill just get a massage this time. I will decline the hand job.” ugg.
Keep in mind this was a legitimate, upscale massage parlor in a very wealthy area. No all night neon signs here. Some of the girl’s were doing “extra” for the customer’s. Not sure if it was with or without the knowledge of the establishment.
Anyway, I had asked him about the massages. The place is staffed by non English speaking Asian women. I actually made a joke about happy endings, never thinkingg for a minute that I had nailed it. He also got a text from one of the therapists there to confirm an appointment. I thought that was a little odd, and did make me a bit suspicious. I guess it was that gut thing – I had no real reason to believe it was really happening. I mentioned that I was uneasy. He blew it off that day saying (of course) he would never do such a thing.
About two days later, he came to me and told me that he had gotten hand jobs at this place. At first he said it was only two. That number slowly grew over the next couple of weeks.
Believe me, right up until he passed the poly, I thought he was probably only telling me part of it. I was scared to death.
I’ve really wondered if he is really an addict. Though I think it’s almost whose if he’s not and kept doing it!
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and are being thoughtful and realistic. Sounds too like you’ve received good counseling and have clear boundaries and self confidence. The sisters here are quite rightly sounding the cautionary notes, and they should be heeded. Many of us thought we had full disclosure, were lured into staying through “fake” recovery, only to find out their addiction was advancing stealthily, secretly and ruining us along with them.
Your (WTH?? If you could stop that easily, why didn’t you?) is the real head scratcher here for you. This is the area that is totally ignored in the traditional sex addiction treatment system (Carnes). Dr. Minwalla at ISH, identifies (and confronts the dynamic in their treatment) the conscious efforts SAs employ to continue their behaviors undetected. Don’t ignore that. It’s crucially important to your sanity to have that addressed. If his recovery plan doesn’t address this, something is wrong. Check out his article on SAIP on the ISH website.
You don’t talk about your overall sense of intimacy with your husband, and hopefully he has some intact relational ability with you. Again, many of us find that the core damage behind sex addiction is an intimacy disorder (in them). They have never been able to establish true intimacy with us and others, had really damaging families of origin, and have used acting out behaviors of all sorts to mask this inability. Their ability to get sober and suddenly go all intimacy on you is not possible, and we feel drained and damaged over and over again by hoping intimacy can be fostered. Many times, their ability for intimacy is impaired, permanently. Then they go into treatment where the learn how to be “intimate.” I personally don’t want to be the guinea pig upon which intimacy exercises get practiced (at the suggestion of “well meaning” couples therapists. So far, they have been excruciatingly inept, and often make me feel even more crazy. Like “gee he’s doing all this work, staying “physically” sober, has a real tight recovery program, but why am I still feeling nutty?” Because I know what intimacy looks like, and this isn’t it, and the day to day guy now just seems like a sad hollow shell who still doesn’t have a clue.
Take care of yourself as you are doing. The bitter truth for me is, if I had been financially independent with a rewarding career, childless (raised a niece), with my own name and home in our community, I would have left when I was 45 (dday #1). Hell, if I’d known he screwed a prostitute at a bachelor party, then receptionist a month before wedding, I would have left him at the altar. And none of this other shit would have happened to me!
This gives me a sinking feeling in my gut. The “it’s easy” thing.
SJ said with absolute glee the first month in “recovery” that he was cured, he just didn’t feel the desire to (fill in the long, long blank) anymore. I asked him to clarify. He said “I won’t ever (blank again) anymore.” I asked him why and he said “because i don’t want to.”
Uh, what?
The whole issue is that they think they have these behaviors as options, based on what they WANT.
Hello? You’re married. Other women are not options no matter what the hell you want! Where is it in those vows that we’d be faithful until we didn’t want to anymore?
See what I mean. The whole mindset is a wipe. Well, if there was a mind there.
Being harsh, sorry. Really, nobody is “cured” of addictions. It’s maintenance. Nobody is cured. And if it’s not an addiction, we’re left with it was a clearheaded choice. Which is what I believe. And they made the choice, repeatedly. They’ll find a reason to rationalize it again, when they’re ready. Nobody who can redraw the lines that easily for themselves stays withing boundaries others expect them to.
No cures. Just maintenance. No cures. Just choices. You don’t get cured, you get real.
For the record, SJ did feel like (blanks) again during recovery, even. And he did. But he didn’t tell anyone. Except, when I just knew, he told me. Nice, huh?
I think when everything is fresh, many addicts feel an aversion to acting out again. I believe my husband does see the immense pain he caused me. I know not all SAs can see that, but some can. That doesn’t make him “better,” it’s just one aspect that happens to be true for him. Beause of that, he does WANT to be done with it. He freely admits that he doesn’t think that it will be “easy” for long. Right now the shock and pain of coming clean and facing his demons is so real and fresh, he can’t imagine going through it all again or putting someone else through it again.
He doesn’t say he’s “cured” by any stretch. He is doing all of his recovery stuff, and says he will continue. He just says that right now, he doesn’t feel an urge to act out.
Frankly, I’ve wondered if he’s just telling himself that. If he really does feel the urge, but pushes it away and then rationalizes that it wasn’t REALLY an urge. I don’t know. I’m not sure that really matters? I’m pretty sick of trying to figure out what goes on in his head.
This is all such a confusing mess. I don’t know what to think.
I am real. I know exactly where my lines are, and am prepared to walk (well kick HIM out) if he crosses it. I know IF recovey works for him, I still have to determine if I can live with the fact that he did this stuff, and may do it again. I don’t know because I haven’t been there yet. I’m not sure I know what sober looks like, so I can’t make an informed decision if I want to live with it or not yet. If he doesn’t stick with recovery and remain sober, the choice is made already. If he does stay sober, then I’ve got some hard decisions to make.
Regardless, I’m just not ready to make that decision now. I need to give it a shot, even if it is only a one in a million chance.
Any “massage” place run by asians is 99% guaranteed to have prostitution going on and don’t let the facade of the place fool you. In Toronto there is a huge number of them, there is pretty much one on every corner in every neighbourhood in the city, and the vast majority are run by asians and have asian women as “masseuses”. Consider yourselves advised.
Nobody with an actual massage license would consider that “happy ending”. If he can’t go to a place with licensed therapists, that’s a definite red flag. Honestly, it’s not a big challenge, REAL massage therapists are required by law to post their licenses in open view in the facility. If they aren’t there, he doesn’t have any reason to be there, either. Except, of course, the one he says he got “talked into”. Not believing it.
Exactly lynn. A reputable establishment with registered massage therapists (RMTs) would display their diplomas and licences prominently and would advertise their establishments under the registered massage therapists, not the “exotic” massage “service” or the places open until 2 am. It really isn’t that hard to distinguish between the legit places and the barely disguised prostitution dens if you have a cursory knowledge of what to look for, (not putting anyone down who is new to this) but don’t take what the guy is telling you at face value and certainly don’t be fooled by what neighbourhood the place is in or what it appears to be on the outside. If you want to know, go inside and talk to the staff. Take long inquiring glances around as you ask to see their licences as RMT’s and what therapeutic medical services they offer. I guarantee you will have your answer in less than sixty seconds.
Man, in my neighbourhood of about six blocks square there are four of these places and all of them are run by asians (you can tell by their names)
Be prepared for the ‘dribble’ effect. They almost all do it…playbook… In the beginning it was just porn and masturbation. Then it was…oops, I forgot… one affair. By the end of the year I found out about numerous affairs, naked penis pics being sent to nurses the same age as our daughter, sex with the family dog, molesting nursing home patients, etc etc. And the number of times always changed. First it was 3 then 6 then 12 then 20. I got to where I don’t believe a damn thing coming out of his mouth.
Oh…and he passed the poly on “I didn’t have sex with that woman” because he lost his erection after he entered her. They did everything else under the sun, but if he lost his erection, he didn’t really have sex, right?
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