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I do wonder whether in my distress over hearing “poor prognosis” if I didn’t shoot the messenger because I didn’t like the message. I know I would really like to hear and believe that there is a good chance, not a POOR chance, for my h to redeem himself- to become whole and healthy. To hear that this is unlikely is very challenging for me to integrate. I want to discount the message and therefore the messenger. (But I am still perplexed about how Minwalla can say h’s prognosis his poor, but then recommend hours and hours and hours and hours of therapy- and continued involvement in his programs on top of that. I mean, if you really think someone’s prognosis is poor, would you really think it’s a good idea to sink more time, money, energy, sweat and tears into it? I don’t know…it had a ring of being self-serving). On the other hand, maybe he is just saying that the chances are poor, but if you still want to try, this is what you’re looking at.
I don’t know if my h can defy the prognosis- I’m not even sure what Minwalla is basing his prognosis on. I asked him, and he gave me a broad statement about self-delusion (yep, I see that), but Minwalla made that prognosis on the phone after 3 days of the intensive program and really not interacting with him much and only just hearing his history from me on the phone minutes earlier. So it seemed a bit premature and not really based on an in-depth personal evaluation. Maybe he’s seen enough of these guys to make those predictions, I don’t know. The inconclusive psych test results is also perplexing, and Minwalla didn’t really have an answer for that except to say that it supported his idea that my h was so self-delusional that he couldn’t really answer the questions in a coherent way? I don’t know, it didn’t really make sense to me. Anyway, the point I’m making is that maybe I’m being negative or hard on Miwalla because I didn’t like hearing the prognosis. And Minwalla is probably correct, really. And maybe my h will be motivated to prove that prognosis wrong. Or he won’t.May I suggest two ways of hearing a prognosis with recommendations that seems contradictory?
As a human being, years and years of therapy are worthwhile because any positive change can impact his life and add value. He’s a human being. If he’s willing to do the work, then it’s worth it.
As a life partner, the prognosis may be telling you that while there is some hope for a better life for him if he does that long hard work, the chances of your relationship being sustainable are slim indeed.
When I cut my SAh loose, I honestly believed he had a better chance of cobbling together a little life for himself—slow healing and recovery, if he didn’t have this marriage relationship at which he was going to continue fail.
The contradiction is not there if you separate what is possible for him and his own life, from what is possible for your relationship.
This is the hardest part, I think.
I don’t know Jo. I wish I had some wicked brilliant insight here but I don’t. I am going to hazard a guess and if you want to read it fine. If you think it just muddies the water more then skip it because it is purely a guess.
You have been thru this shit and then found years later he was in “fake recovery” even after he watched you break thru all those gut wrenching hurdles that you talked about to reach forgiveness.. He gets to Minwalla and does such an idiot job on the psych test that no one can even interpret it. His prognosis is labeled “poor”. I would say he is pretty hopeless.
Yes, Minwalla can make mistakes. Yes, it could have been handled better. Yes, it’s about money. BUT, I still say that Minwalla is the best out there and he probably does see so many of these guys that he has a real good idea very quickly what is going on. I was a teacher for 15 years. I could have a 5 minute conversation with a kid and pretty much peg their IQ/test score/grades without the testing. I couldn’t tell you a diagnoses of a child or a clinical term but I could tell you the basics without doubt. I suppose that Minwalla has seen enough to know some things without much effort. The difference is that I would never have shared my insights with a parent until I did have test scores, individual observations, classroom observations, input from others, and a more concrete plan of action.
A poor prognosis does not automatically mean that you give up. If you had cancer and the prognosis was poor then you might keep fighting and beat it. It would be your decision and the doctor would need to be honest with you. Maybe your H should keep fighting no matter what for himself. I don’t think that means that you have to fight with him.
I would be more angry with Minwalla for telling me his prognosis was good and it wasn’t. We need the truth or we have no idea what we are up against. I guess my point is that it would have been so much easier for Minwalla to lie and say “Oh yeah, this is going to be a piece of cake and a few more visits and he will be just perfect…..”
Maybe Minwalla just told you the truth? Maybe your H is so far gone and self delusional that getting thru to him will be an enormous battle. I don’t know but it’s
something to consider.If I am way off or if I just made things worse then please ignore me. I will be hoping you can find some peace and come to some decision. I know you are stressed and in a tough place right now.
Jo, I’ve only talked to Minwalla on the phone a couple of times, and my SA went down there 2 or 3 times. But I think I hear what you’re saying. I think when it comes to the SA, it’s just not Minwalla’s area of expertise. He’s amazing, as far as understanding partners’ trauma goes, and conveying that to the SA. But I got a bit of vagueness from him when I asked him directly about my SA. My opinion is that Minwalla needs to establish more of a network of reputable therapists and gain familiarity with them for referrals. But even with that being said, whether there’s really any hope for these guys to learn to be real, even with therapy, I just don’t know.
I get what you’re saying. The shoot the messenger thing. If only I had a professional telling me there was basically no hope for my husband. It would just confirm my thinking he’s a lost cause anyway.
And to be given that information and then shuttled away to hear “Ok, thanks for coming. Next!” without a definitive plan of dealing with that information. That’s a lot to take in and another trauma of sorts, to you.
Diane, YES: “The contradiction is not there if you separate what is possible for him and his own life, from what is possible for your relationship” And that is where I see I can get very stuck. As Minwalla said, my h is very “fused with his thoughts” and I think I am very “fused with his thoughts”, too. It’s really hard for me to separate out his recovery from OUR recovery.
Bev, thanks for your thoughts. They are always welcome, and I appreciate your frankness. I agree that false hope is dangerous, but I also think there is such a thing as false despair. I wish I had some certainty about which is which. I’m looking for what is real, and because of all the lies, I feel my directional signals are really warped. I keep looking for the actions, not the words. Today I saw a bit of action. He called a therapist on his own, he made the arrangements himself. He reviewed his notebook from the intensive with me, sharing all his notes- line by line. I don’t know if he was looking for a gold star, but at least he was transparent. Some of it was hard to hear, even though I pretty much knew it all already. I’m not getting all excited about these steps, just saying they seem to be actions that are in the positive column. Honestly, as I write this, it really sounds like crumbs.
When my cat was dying, we had a hospice vet come to the house to evaluate her to determine if we should euthanize her. The vet said there were two types of people: the day- late types and the day-early types. That you could never perfectly time when to end the life of your pet. I knew right away I was the day-late type. I am the sort that really needs to be convinced there is no hope before I surrender, and that usually means I endure (or my pet will endure) more pain than is optimal.My personal take on hope:
“Hope is not the conviction that something will turn out well, but the certainty that something makes sense regardless of how it turns out.” ~ Vaclav Havel
Liza, yes, agree with your personal take. I liked the line from that movie…uh…the name I can’t remember…rats….the hotel one in India…uh…oh well…
The line is “Everything will be all right in the end. If it’s not all right, it’s not the end.”
Jomard I have spent the last day thinking about you and admiring the care and concern you have for your husband’s wellness. Your forgiveness in the face of what he has done is inspirational. I like that you have hope. I had that but somehow I got caught up in as you describe ‘false despair’. I have evidence that my husband is recovering, there is no evidence of him returning to ‘his ways’. I see a changed man in every way but somehow I couldn’t believe it. I was just too scared. He is doing the work. Thank you for reminding me there is hope. Catherine xo
thank you catherine. I connect with your story too, because it seems that you too are in a long-term marriage with a man who was/is troubled, but not evil. It’s hard to believe the change even when you see it- there’s been so much pain and betrayal that self-protective walls instinctively come up. I totally get the fear that is activated even thinking about being lied to and betrayed again and finding out. The memory of the shock of discovery and the weight of carrying all the pain from it is enough to keep the guard at the gate for a long, long time. It’s hard, very hard, to hold hope and caution at the same time- but I think it is possible. It sounds like you have reason to be hopeful, you see evidence- not just talk- of his progress.
Liza, YES, that’s the name of it! I loved that movie too!We had a longer than normal session with out joint therapist last night. I brought to the session some notes I had made about where I’m at. It was good to talk some things through like my fear of the monster, my fear of trusting again, what I need from my husband (perfection). I questioned the therapist about recovery. Has he seen it? Has he witnessed false recovery? He has seen both. He said it is easy to recognise false recovery and zero in on it as a therapist. He said he sees in us a genuine love and enjoyment of each other more so than any of his other patients. He confirmed all my feelings and fears as normal. It was very encouraging. I’m going to try hard to be more positive. I have nothing to lose. Despair is a pretty awful emotion.
Catherine will his or the joint therapist be doing polygraphs to assess his recovery down the track? Do you think that will help you?
Yes it would help very much Victoria but they have been unable to find someone they consider a reliable polygrapher.
Jo, I am very busy at the moment. I have to say I was going to say what Bev said…maybe your H is a hopeless case? There are many therapists who will not work with the personality disordered and it would also make it very difficult to refer the person on to a colleague, if you your self thought it was a waste of time? That being said, you are a bright woman and it is your choice how much and how long you want to hope.
I have not been to Minwalla BUT I think the reason he understands the partner experience so well, is because he recognizes that many of these men cannot be helped. He knows what they do and he knows how extreme their abuse is. The rest of the Sex Addiction industry is busy telling most of them it isn’t their fault? The way you describe your husband’s childhood is simply chilling. I really don’t know how any person can survive an experience like that and manage to develop a fully integrated personality. I just don’t.
Anyway, if you want to keep trying then do so. Its your life and your husband and your choice…no matter what anyone says. I’m sorry things did not go well at all.
Hugs Karen xCatherine, if they can’t find anyone reliable in Sydney, have they considered looking at polygraph examiners from interstate? Many of them are willing to travel (at an additional cost of course).
http://www.advancedpolygraph.com.au/Martin-Taylor.htm
http://www.advancedpolygraph.com.au/Elizabeth-Martin.htm
She is originally from the US.
I believe they are reputable. I contacted them ages ago about a sex addiction polygraph, but they thought I meant sex offender testing, which they are trained in. However, if a proper therapist explained it to them, and what exactly is needed for sex addiction, along with Cabler’s info, they would most likely understand. I didn’t feel personally equipped to do this, however, without a therapist helping me.
Jo,
I’ve been busy with life, and I am just catching up with your threads about ISH.I am really sorry that you didn’t get the hope you were looking for about your SAH from Dr. M. It sounds like you were looking for a magic bullet for his treatment, and none exists. The Carnes model is all there is- plus a few tweaks by Dr. M which we’ve discussed before (ex. some modifications of the circles, partner trauma…). Sounds like your H was hoping for the magic bullet, too.
The reality of sex addiction is hard to swallow. Very few get better as far as we know. It’s a life-long struggle with tons of money and time going to therapy with no guarantee that it is doing anything. Your lives are organized around sex addiction. Every notice how many sex addicts become CSAT’s and their wives work in their offices? And how many partners become therapists (my CSAT is a partner, in fact)?
In reading your posts, the thing that jumped out to me is how dialed in to his experience/treatment you still are. I know you feel compassion for him because of his childhood, but he is not a little boy. He is capable of finding a therapist and of advocating for his own recovery. If there are concerns about his long term treatment plan, shouldn’t he be the one making the phone call?
You seem reluctant to give up emotionally but intellectually you are in a different place. My therapist always tells me to slow things down and we do EMDR when I am having those kinds of issues.
So I would encourage you to slow things down and maybe remove yourself from his experience as much as you can. You don’t need to decide anything now about divorce/committing to the marriage. You can ask to separate for awhile maybe. He can have his own place and give you both space. It sounds like you are afraid that you are his only support or his lifeline? Don’t think that that is a good place to be. I don’t know if that is it or you have other fears/concerns. But it seems like you are still in the fence-sitting stage- which is, I think what happens when intellect and emotions are in conflict- and maybe it is time to look at options other than commitment/divorce?
Jo,
I know how much it hurts to hear the sisters suggest there isn’t hope. Please try and do the separation thing about how the hope works.
There is always hope for him to improve his own life if he works really hard and long with a really good therapist. But it is probably not likely that he will be able to sustain a relationship with you that is even close to “normal”. IMO the work he has to do on his own life is probably a full time job and trying to work on the relationship would likely be impossible for him. Hope for him works differently for him than for you. That’s a critical point of understanding future options.
You have hope in your own life too–that you can be happy and free of this pall of grief and trouble that pulls you back into a swamp where anything can happen. You can have hope in the relationship, even a relationship that is diminished in real mutuality (if you’re okay with that) once you know if he can get better at all in some way that matters. But you don’t know that until he does the work for a while.
I do think you need to work out a scenario that honours your own values and needs. It may be that you can agree to divorce (they seem to need this finality in order to grasp the line in the sand, and you need the financial and psychological clarity and safety in order to freely consider his situation) but then agree to meet after he’s done two years of intensive treatment for his PD’s and underlying trauma etc. You and he will have a better idea of what is possible and what isn’t. You may want to wait another two years, and another two years—-who knows. I’m just trying to help you see that your options are more than you think. But they do still tie up your life with him and his recovery. If that’s who you are, then that’s who you are and who am I to say its wrong.
In my case, I just wanted some scrap of a life that he hadn’t ruined and wasn’t going to ruin. I needed something he couldn’t wreck after being robbed of three decades of what my life meant to me. But I also had no real options for therapy for him as he was 12 stepping his way to fake recoveries and his PD’s were untouched, and no therapist was up to his capacity for deceit and manipulation.Your heart is heavy, and my heart is heavy for you. Your love is clearly something very precious and he probably has no idea how extraordinary is your capacity to consider staying with him. May you have the Light to love yourself as much as you love him, and find a path that is not without sorrow, but also not without joy.
Diane.xo
There is NO shame in having hope. The real question is whether the price of the hope is just too high. If I was “hoping” for my child to beat cancer and survive, I would gladly pay the price for my child. If I am hoping my h can keep his dick in his pants then I’m not all in. I hope that he can. I hope that for every SA on the planet because it would be a good thing for everyone involved but I am not fully vested in the outcome. It’s worth exploring how far “in” you are willing to put yourself. I hope from afar that there is peace in the Middle East but I am not betting the farm on it an I am not going to be completely derailed and crushed by the next war…….
Hope is measurable.
Dear ones, thank you all for your thoughtful and compassionate responses. There is much wisdom in them all, and I welcome your thoughts. Much for me to think about, as usual. Teri, you are correct in that I am struggling mightily with the emotional part, even though intellectually, I can see the challenges- perhaps insurmountable for one or both of us- ahead. When to pull the plug on the next step- that is, to really stop trying to make anything work for us and for him? I’m sort of like my h- I can say the “words”- I know I need to stop taking care of him, I need to stop thinking I am abandoning this wounded child, I need to stop trying to second guess him, I need to stop looking for signs that tell me he’s ok or not ok- I need to put all this on sleep mode and let everything simmer down. But my actions aren’t matching those words. Clearly, I need more help with this. Meeting with a new therapist tomorrow- I need a guide. I have some remorse about cancelling on the partner intensive, but I think I was feeling so stirred up (probably vicariously by my h’s experience) that I couldn’t imagine going to the intensive and stirring the pot further. Maybe I can go in the future, for now I need to pull back, take deep breaths, let the rest of the world take care of itself.
So grateful for everyone’s support. :::deep bow:::Jo, Good luck with your new therapist.
This all sucks, no matter how you slice it. I’m sorry- you are a smart, compassionate, strong woman who is fighting because you see the potential and you see how much there is to lose. Unfortunately, it’s just not your fight. It’s okay to let it go.
Teri, yeah, trying to see what’s possible and trying to step back. So much trying. I offered my h 6 months of him doing his own thing and me stepping back to take care of myself and then we can evaluate. Might be a wasted 6 months along with the wasted 32 years. I’m willing to waste it, if necessary, to assure myself that he is a total lost cause. I just NEED TO STAY OUT OF IT. Please remind me regularly to stay out of taking care of him, of making excuses for him, of feeling sorry for him.
Jo, it is not necessarily a wasted 6 months. It’s not like you are dying to run off with George Clooney and make babies (besides Nap and Liza already have him anyway).
I’m just saying that we all beat ourselves up over 2nd chances and still love him and he needs help and he may not be pure evil..etc. We are human beings. It is okay to step back and think. You are not in any danger. Your kids are in no danger. Your H is trying to be decent and not actively cheating. It may be that it is just too much for you but you have to come to that conclusion.
You’re over thinking it. Stop thinking and doing and just be. See what unfolds and let your gut be your guide. If it is all wrong and you need to bail then you will figure that out.
We all take a lot of shit ( see the codependent thread) over being caring, thoughtful,decent people. I would say that if we change who we are for the sake of anyone then we would be codependent. It’s okay to take a breath and step back and calmly watch what unfolds. It isn’t a race and the first one to figure everything out does not win. We all lose no matter what. It’s up to us to decide how much we lose.
Sending big hopes for your clarity to come sooner rather than later 🙂
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