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What do you guys think of Patrick Carnes’ Out of the Shadows. I read this book first and I was infuriated by the coaddiction stuff. My husband’s counselor assigned my husband the first three chapters after the first session. My husband is fuming just like me because he doesn’t believe he has an addiction. He sees he has a very serious problem, but he doesn’t feel he’s addicted to prostitutes like someone would be addicted to food, or drugs, or alcohol. He sees the whole thing as a decision he makes in his mind, without some sort of physical dependency. Do we have the wrong counselor?
So Penny, your h has confessed to simply being an asshole? He’s NOT addicted? He has no real problem?
That makes things easier.
ooooo boy, this is going to be a good one.
patrick carnes can be good for sexual compulsiveness.
i don’t know if i think it is an addiction. but i do see that so many of these SAs act in so similar ways.. it’s creepy.
the coaddict model is infuriating!!
education is key in this though, so i think it’s ok for your husband to read the carnes book, with an open mind.
he can take what he can from it.
you (or he) don’t have to believe everything you read…
it’s hard to know if you have the right counsellor or not. but these guys are in SERIOUS denial, especially at the very beginning.
i would insist that your husband keep going.
and the trauma model is better for partners (barbara steffans, thank god for her)
the degree of denial/lies/minimization/dissociation/compartmentalization these guys have to do this crazy shit is staggering.
i hope i’m wrong, but it is possible this will be one of the most shocking things you will learn in the next few months.. i know it was and is for me, and incredible shock to realize how damaged and broken my partner is.
he is a tilted man
Penny – my SAH said that he thought that I would never find out – so that’s why he did it. Fun on the side without any consequences. As his stuff escalated – he realized (now) that there were times when he couldn’t stop. I think the “addiction” piece (neuro chemicals) comes as the “high” and their activities change the brain and like an “addict” – they are hooked physically. I think many times it starts out as “fun, self-soothing activities” (sometimes due to childhood trauma – and they choose sex instead of alcohol or drugs since there was a link between “sex” and their trauma) and then the chemical “high” (which with sex addicts apparently involve 3 parts of the brain vs. one for other substances).
I do believe that a PD is usually also involved.
Re: Carnes – he understands the bio-chemistry and the addiction stuff – but he is patronizing to partners. Sure – some of us have co-dependency issues, but many don’t. He is a moron when it comes to partners.
Re: your husband – my SAH started out saying the same thing – he could stop at any time – and then when he started analyzing his behavior and instances – he realized that he couldn’t stop. His sponsor in SA told him he wasn’t an addict since he could stop at any time (he stopped going to prostitutes but then escalated to CL ads and serial affairs). Your husband may have not gotten to the addiction biochemical part – and was just in the self-soothing phase.
Where do you live? There are some counselors that get the trauma side of our experience. You might want to consider going to Dr. Minwalla in LA for a 2-3 day custom intensive for you and your husband…..he’s about the best in the nation at understanding both the SA and us. If you want to work on your marriage, I think it’s very helpful. There are others out there that are getting enlightened but they are few and far between – others on this board have found some. I have to fly to LA to find sanity in the therapist world. My own therapist in SF is fine – but no one compares to Dr. Minwalla in my book.
Speaking of which – March – did you SA sign up to a Minwalla intensive? I remember him saying that he was going to do it….
Deb
No, he’s working with a guy here in Atlanta who trained under Minwalla. After hearing Annie’s report, I’m glad we didn’t spend the money to go out West.
Penny, you asked ‘do we have the wrong counselor?’ Personally, I think you hit the jackpot with this one. To echo March, your husband is admitting he’s NOT an addict but an asshole? Problem solved. Husband’s got to go. Or if not, you have to make the ‘decision in your mind’ (just like your husband does when he chooses to fuck diseased hookers) whether you can live with an asshole who cares nothing about you. Love, Liza
Penny, I have the same Carnes book but I haven’t opened it yet. I’m reading Barbara Steffens book now. I’ll skim through Carnes when I’m done with hers and see if there’s anything of value for me there. I definitely do not buy the co-dependence/co-addiction model at this point.
Patrick Carnes is an SA…he may have done some great things or maybe he is a vile human being that sought to excuse his behavior with a bunch of “addict” mumbo jumbo…I don`t know. His book made me puke. Maybe I puked because it is the truth and maybe I puked because it was crap. I just knew that he was full of shit…one way or the other. And, I have heard enough shit to know it when I hear it. He has valid points. If an “SA” finds it helpful then I say go for it. I would not advise it as “for partners”.
When any book tells me that it was partially MY fault that the man I loved fucked hookers..I am done with that book.
Sorry…feeling really bad right now…
Yeah, I wanted to say “Step Away From The Carnes”, but didn’t want to come off too negative. That said, “PLEASE Step Away From The Carnes”! 😉
bev, i agree with everything you said…
carnes and his carnies may help the SA. in that sense he has some use…
but not the partner.
When I first read it, I found it terrifying.
The co-addict chapter needs to be literally ripped out of every copy, however, other than that I think the rest of it is helpful for the SA.
I am trying to save myself Victoria, so my concern about the “addict” is clearly skewed. Of course, I haven`t written a book that blames the addict for all my GD, MF’ing problems….
I didn’t have the stomach to finish any carnes book.
In the beginning when I was so lost, and he was pulling tricks that I didn’t understand until now, I found Barbra Steffens book super helpful. Also, Deceived by Claudia Black was one of the best things I read at the time. I cried with relief through most of it. I need to go back and re-read that one.Thanks Victoria and Nap.. I felt better after I let it fly 🙂
I had to do school pick up and was supposed to make my daughter`s volleyball game…I just couldn`t do it. That made me so angry. I sent a text to h and asked him to go and he didn`t answer for an hour ( he was at a 12 step meeting) and it just sent me into orbit…He is at the game. That I know for a fact. My anger just came boiling up from hell…Again 🙂
I was thinking on my way to work to day at this very same topic…blaming the spouse, and the spouse is partly to blame.
So who did we blame before there was a spouse? The addiction was there BEFORE the spouse….who do we blame? Where are these other people who are to blame before then? How come they are nto addressed in the book? Old girlfriends, friends, parents, famil, bothers and sisters??? Where are they in this program? And if we are to blame…so are they.
I actually think they just want to give us soemthing to do and feel bad about soo we stay. Otherwise if you don’t treat the entire family of origin…i would think it all would continue into eternity. The structure if the cause and continued state is there and was there….why blame the spouse?
I think its all a crock. Major bits are missing, and the person most hurt by all of this is in most ways expected to carry the most of the burden 🙁
Yes, husband is saying he acted as an asshole not an addict for two years and three months with prostitutes. I believe he has the biochemical patterns Deb mentioned. I don’t think you can do prostitutes for two years and three months without your brain chemistry changing. I do believe my husband’s deal stems from a mid-life crisis, he wanted younger women to help him regain the whole masculine package of youth, vitality, and future potential. He has a ton of spiritual work to do. I believe he has Impulse Control Disorder with sexual acting out symptoms. He picked up the narcissism along the way, though its increasingly breaking up in the past three weeks as he regains some ability to self-reflect again. Thanks everyone for the feedback and the suggestions for reading and therapy, all noted. Lisacay, we will get what we can from Patrick Carnes and leave the rest behind.
Sorry Bev. Sending hugs
Penny, he is a Sex Addict. I am 6 months out of disclosure. My therapists said “Do not trust or believe anything your SA says during the first year after disclosure.” He is doing all his stuff and that’s great! but I no longer want to focus on his recovery. I am focusing on ME and healing myself. I care about me and my well being. Wishing you peace and love.
Dawn
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