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I think we need a new thread about this for some of the new sisters. JoAnn wrote a great ebook on this topic. I want to be clear about my thoughts on it because I post at times what my H is doing right and how he was helped by Minwalla etc… I do not want this to be confused with “he is cured and all is peachy”.
I believe that the sexual activities must stop before any other work can be done. I do know that these guys have turned to sex to cope with whatever. They have a secret life. I am all for them stopping and coming out of denial about it. That is where Minwalla really helped. It isn’t denial that they are DOING it. It is denial that they have a problem and cannot stop on their own. This is also where 12 steps can be of help.
I don’t believe that sex is an addiction in and of itself. I do believe that they have chosen sex to substitute for everything normal they don’t have. I also believe that stopping requires help.
I have seen that after the work with Minwalla the biggest difference is the work that my H is doing with a therapist surrounding his childhood. He is working to develop coping skills, judgement, and generally learning to be what I call human. The work revolves more around a PD type model than an addict model. He is still going to 3 12 steps a week and meets with his sponsor on Friday. He is seeing this therapist on the recommendation of his CSAT.
I am sharing this info because I truly believe that these guys must work on the underlying issues and not just stop the sex crap.
I am also only doing this because he is the father of my children and I want him to get all the help that he can. This is not to say in any way that I have a happy marriage. I don’t even consider myself married anymore and if he asked me to marry him all over again ( which he has), I would say no.
The intensives that these guys attend are all fine as it relates to handling the sex ( acting out). They are NOT okay for turning this person into a real member of society.
The sex addiction “industry” has done a lot of harm IMO. It has harmed partners and “addicts” alike. My concern here is for partners and my big concern for any so called addict is for the children that they harm.
These guys are not normal and they cannot be treated exactly like a drug addict, an alcoholic, or a food addict or a shopaholic…..It is not the same. These guys have serious issues. I do not want one more sister to be herded into a COSA group or listen to any more Patrick Carnes BS.
If you haven’t already, read JoAnn’s book. If you are even thinking of staying with these guys then you need all the info you can get.
Wow Bev.. this is a mouthful. Am I just so glad I am divorcing. What is PD? sorry for sounding stupid
Sorry Gail, pd is personality disorder. My H was tested and no disorder showed up that would warrant a label but scores were high in certain areas and his ability to deal with his reality ( crappy childhood etc) was defintly impaired.
Well said, Bev. These are complex problems that (IMHO) the scientific/psychiatric/psychological community have yet to figure out. Some of these guys are true sociopaths with no remorse, some narcissists who believe they just deserve to have sex with whoever they want, some are survivors of childhood sexual abuse trying to master the pain that was inflicted on them, some are just pervs who can’t achieve orgasm when engaging in intimate sex ( it has to be nameless, objectified), etc, etc. and several combinations of the above… To treat them all the same would be a mistake, but parsing out who is who can be difficult for a professional, let alone a layperson.
I totally agree with Bev – the work only begins when they stop all the sexual behaviors. The uphill climb is that process of becoming “human.” And for each SA, that work can look very different, but what isn’t different is the TIME it will take to really do it. IMO, it’s on the order of YEARS, if ever.Bev, I agree with everything you said. I don’t think my H has an addiction but he was definitely soothing his own insecurities, etc. with sex and he definitely has issues with his FOO and with emotional intimacy. I also believe mine has stopped the sexual activities but still has a ton of work to do on all the rest of it. I have no idea if he has a PD. He hasn’t given his therapist permission to give me any information so I know absolutely nothing about what he has found. My H did tell me that a while back that they had not done any work on FOO issues but that may have changed now that the disclosure has been done.
I don’t have any doubt that my H can successfully conquer the sex shit. The question in my mind is whether he can become a decent human being who understands what he has put me and our children through and can relate to me with the depth of emotional intimacy I need. I don’t want to end up with a faithful asshole. I want to end up with a faithful and caring partner.
Well said Bev and it really puts in all in perspective. Many have core FOO issues and may be child trauma victims themselves. Some (a significant percentage) were sexually molested as a child/adolecent and often by a family member or trusted family friend. They are not normal because they are quite damaged individuals which may result in a PD or a way to cope. What matters is how we feel about ourselves and what we are willing to accept or not accept in our lives. For example, my Xh is so damaged I was told he could go inpt for 6 yrs and he’d still wouldn’t make a difference plus he has so many layers of defense mechanisms in place like denial and projection. To this day he really thinks nothing is wrong with him, just a ‘ladies man’.
Excellent thread Bev. Wow. Your husband is going to 12 steps three times a week, meeting with his sponsor weekly and seeing a therapist and a CSAT regularly. Maybe that’s why my husband came back without a plan, I could maybe see him seeing a therapist on a regular basis for a while, but he would have to have a lobotomy to agree to the other stuff. It sounds like your husband really wants to get better.
I don’t believe it’s an addiction, either. It functions like one in many ways, but I also agree it’s just a coping mechanism for deeper issues.
After my discovery of my husband’s “activities” I was LIVID when he said “I’m a sex addict and I need treatment”. My memory of his expression when I turned on him and said “No, you’re not. That’s just a convenient bunker you’re going to dive into to dodge the bullet” is forever burned into my mind. Bingo, dead on.
After all I’ve seen of his actions, and his “collections” and his lying through recovery, I am more convinced than ever that I was right. It’s a bulletproof shield. All I am supposed to do now is throw a celebration and congratulate him when he manages to keep his dick in his pants for any period of time, and not hamper his recovery with my anger when he doesn’t.
Bullshit.
He is in treatment for borderline personality disorder – BPD. Well, he was, they finished up last week. Resulting email to me, he’s in hell because I wished it on him. I kid you not. He denies the BPD diagnosis, but I saw it on the billings the hospital sent to me.
Counselors who have read the email interchanges I’ve shared say he’s a narcissist. which fits what I know of him (looking back) and is statistically correct for 47% of BPD patients . Both of which present NO HOPE of being cured. That’s about right from my perspective. He’s still blaming me for his behaviors, or is in denial, after 4 treatment programs in almost 2 years. I guess I’m lucky I know that he’s in denial and blaming me. Some are smart enough to keep that under wraps to string their partners along another couple decades.
It’s preposterous that this is allowed by a community that KNOWS the cure rate is not even verifiable at 5%. That is abuse, in my mind, to know that and keep people in the system to milk the funds from them.
Excellent information. Attention Deficit Disorder plays a part in about 50% of cases. With ADD, the pre frontal cortex, according to the latest research, never fully develops. Unfortunately, this is the area of the brain that is responsible for decision making.
When I read these threads, my heart cries for you all. I have finally pulled out of this after 19 yrs. staying for family and other reasons. The toll on me though………
Best, saturdayBev, I would love to hear all the activities your husband is doing (you mentioned 3 SA meetings a week). My SA could barely attend 3/month and it took him months to actually get a sponsor. I think that’s important to point out because if someone is going to stay, they need a reference point. My husband would tell me he was doing so much, and I had no reference point. He told me that he was not reading the books because he was gaining so much from the step work (BS) Then I came a cross his notebook. He filled out one page with chicken scribble. Deep thought, not! 8 months and 2 known prostitution visits later I realized/accepted that he was faking it and doing the bare minimum to “look” like he was doing something.
Great topic Bev!!! I am constantly in awe over the insight you express here. As I clicked on this thread my first thought was that pd is just code for asshole.
Daisy summed up my feelings the best……”I don’t have any doubt that my H can successfully conquer the sex shit. The question in my mind is whether he can become a decent human being who understands what he has put me and our children through and can relate to me with the depth of emotional intimacy I need. I don’t want to end up with a faithful asshole. I want to end up with a faithful and caring partner.” ………..I would only add that I don’t have any doubt my H can successfully conquer the sex shit
IF he stuck with his men’s group AND switched to a CSAT which he hasn’t done yet with either.My H wavers back and forth between not believing a CSAT will tell him anything new that the non CSAT (my former therapist who never called him out on anything!) hasn’t already told him to wavering with his little boy mentality of hold my hand and find me one. I said “Nope. Not doing it. I’m done with the hand holding. I have found all three therapists we’ve seen since being married. It’s your turn. Look up CSAT’s in the phone book/ins directory, pick one, call or email them/ask them questions, decide if they’re a good fit for what you need, see if they take your ins then call the ins co for authorization to go see them, like I had to do years ago that led me to the non CSAT I went to for 18 mos? that you ended up seeing because she agreed to see you when all of this shit went down with your porn addiction that YOU caused.”
I’m in an officer update class this week. We cover many topics….mainly street survival and emotional well being. Alcohol is a huge factor nationwide with officers. For years it has been a coping mechanism, a way to “unwind” after work or to deal with stress in general. The instructor pointed out that usually behind an addiction is depression of some kind. To deal with the depression, many officers self-medicate with alcohol, some use illegal drugs or gamble, but mainly it’s alcohol. Sex addiction never came up. I almost said something but didn’t because cops talk and I don’t want my co workers knowing that’s my struggle. I will meet privately with a dept psychologist and ask him to suggest to the instructor that sa be included in his list and to research it. That avenue ensures anonymity for me as the instructor in general is an ass.
We’ve lost several to suicide and even more have lost jobs due to dwi’s or coming to work drunk and driving a squad car while intoxicated and that’s just within my own police department. Many of those were officers in patrol vs. working in an office as detectives but we also have had a few patrol supervisors that were drunks. One was a Lieutenant. Drank vodka so the odor was nearly nothing. Fell down in front of us as he went to sit in a chair. He abruptly retired after driving drunk in a city car. He died not long after that from cirrhosis of the liver? Another one was a really good guy. Would do anything for you. If you called him, on or off duty, he was there to help.
He was busted for dwi on duty after being involved in a crash in a squad car. The guys knew he could drink but no one suspected he was as bad as he was until he had a minor crash on duty. Afterward, the question became when was he not drunk, since he fooled everyone for so long?
Now, I’m not saying depression causes all addictions but while sitting in the class hearing what the instructor said about depression being behind many addictions, I began wondering about my H. He’s never had formal testing for pd except for my belief that he’s a narcissist and the non CSAT classifying/diagnosing him as a porn addict.
Regarding depression, I’ve had three kids. Unlike three possibly four sisters in my family I did not have the classic signs for post partum. I could cope, I bonded with my babies right away, I wasn’t crying all the time, etc. My one sister had it so bad that she was fully detached from the baby and my mom had to go over every day after work for several months and take care of my niece until she was down for the night. My brother in law couldn’t deal with my sister being so depressed either. I felt lucky I never had it that bad but I struggled getting to work. I would clean house after lunch until I needed to get in the shower for work but instead I would call in late an hr a few times a week.
One of my guy friends snapped on it and told me later he pulled my sgt aside and told him to go easy on me because he thought I was struggling with post partum. My sgt never hassled me but he did ask what’s the deal a few times before my friend said something to him. Of course, I didn’t realize I was having issues so I told him I was struggling trying to juggle a new baby into my schedule. She did have a health problem the first 7 weeks but still I thought it was all good. When my friend said he told the sgt that, that’s when I started thinking shit, this is messed up. What’s wrong with me?
I didn’t know post partum can take other forms besides hiding in bed, crying all the time and feeling hopeless. I was overwhelmed and couldn’t see it myself.
Is depression considered a pd? I don’t mean post partum. I mean from the standpoint of a man having it? Could depression truly be part of addiction. In the beginning, an addiction makes someone feel better, so to speak, so is depression and a pd one in the same?
Eliza,
I think we might have been married to the same guy. ‘Mr. Fake It til you don’t make it.’Ugh!!! Ugh!!!
Bev,
I agree with your 100%. First they must stop the behaviors but the sad thing is that most of the treatment models think that is it. My husband has been on a “behavior plan” for a year but has not really received treatment. The problem is they have him so brainwashed that he thinks he is being treated.
Myself, I don’t think the sexual activity is that relevant at all. Sex feels good. They do it because it is pleasurable and they don’t have a well developed moral compass, so they don’t care who they hurt. They don’t stop because they get help, they stop because they get caught and they then have to choose between sexual fun and game and real consequences to them. They stop to protect their jobs, their reputations, their image and their money. I don’t think ANY of them stop because they care how their behaviour hurts their wives and children. They stop because someone presents them with a motivating factor and that factor is never about the losses of others…it is always
about their losses. Sex is not the problem with these men. A fractured or completely absent “core self” is the problem and I don’t think any form of therapy has been developed to fix that. I mean how do you teach someone in their 50’s who they are when they should have learned that by age 7?Maybe the treatment acknowledges that they are so broken you can’t fix them. All you can do is try to get them to stop their behavior?
I would love to believe that the sex part did not matter. I would love to believe that he was/is just a plain old ordinary cheater. It just is not the case. He couldn’t even have a normal affair. The sexual dysfunction must be addressed ( it is dysfunction).
The sex part is really the easy part to deal with if they truly want help. The brainwashing and the treatment models leave a lot to be desired.
None of it helps us anyway. What’s done is done and other than the kids involved, it just does not matter. …
Just think how different Teri’s situation would be if the powers that be would grasp the fact that fucking around is the LEAST of doc evils problems. If we acknowledge that the sex addiction part covers up a true problem then maybe the courts and the copa’s would be taught to view this in a serious manner. If we continue to call them “cheaters” and ” morally bankrupt” then why should judges, lawyers, child psychologists, and even our own therapists take us or our children seriously. Millions of cheaters and morally corrupt people live on this planet. These guys are a different problem and it deserves to be acknowledged….just my 2 cents.
“Sex is not the problem with these men. A fractured or completely absent “core self” is the problem and I don’t think any form of therapy has been developed to fix that. I mean how do you teach someone in their 50′s who they are when they should have learned that by age 7?”
Amen to that Karen!
I go back and forth on whether or not I believe this is an addiction. On one hand I think it’s an addiction b/c I believe my h. truly does not to be in this situation but up until now, he did not have the coping mechanisms in place to stop. He is allegedly sober and maybe that means he hasn’t actually had sex (who knows?) but he hasn’t stopped lying – mainly in small ways so that leads me to believe if it is an addiction, he’s as addicted to the lying & secrecy as he is to anything else. I also worry about him replacing “addictions” and whether or not he’s drinking too much (I am trying to stay detached from that).
What I don’t like about it being labeled an addiction, is that I find (at least in my h’s case) that it becomes a convenient excuse. “I have an addiction! I couldn’t help myself!” Case in point – my h. for months did not want me to tell my family (and I wasn’t ready too either) so when I did finally tell my parents that he had an affair, he was upset that I didn’t tell him that he is a sex addict! He thinks he’s get more sympathy/empathy from them if they thought he couldn’t help it b/c he’s sick! I think going to all those SA meetings and reading all those books helps normalize the behavior so they aren’t so “ashamed” of admitting that they are “Sex Addicts”.
I don’t think my h. has a PD – of course you never know – but he did have some childhood molestation and has depression and anxiety. Does it make his behavior better? No. It just gives me some modicum of hope that he’ll be “semi-normal” during the divorce process. We’ll see.
The litmus test, for me, is the fact that my husband will own the fact that he’s been labeled an addict, but cannot own his behaviors or their consequences. I think an addict in recovery can recognize where he has caused pain and suffering and show empathy. You will just know by what they say and do that they are “getting it” and are becoming a different person.
My husband says “Well, APPARENTLY, I have this addiction…”, like, what the hell is your problem?
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