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One of the things that my husband said that he was diagnosed with when he started his SA counseling was called “toxic shame”. I think this has something to do with the fact he thinks that he is such a horrible person and this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy . Have any of you heard of this?
March, I know that in another post you indicated that when you would tell your husband how you were feeling he would accuse you of shaming him. This is something that happened many times in exchanges with my husband. I know that when I was feeling really sad and tears were flowing from my eyes, he would not be able to react to my grief. He would sit there stone faced staring out into the room. He would often get angry with me and claim that I was trying to punish him with my tears. He would say that I could not hold this over his head for ever. He was not going to pay for this for the rest of his life. He was so frustrated that I was feeling sadness over this when he had obviously dealt with this problem. He went to counseling and he said he was not going to do those things anymore. Why was this not good enough for me? He would act all offended and aloof that I was still hurting. I would respond by saying that I needed him to comfort me and nurture me in light of my sorrow. I need him to care that I was hurting over this. I needed him to show me that how I was feeling mattered to him. He would say that the fact that I needed those things was my problem. He said that he is not responsible for my happiness and that he hopes that I get help for this. He said that each individual is responsible for their own happiness and part of his healing is this knowledge. He said that I need to let go of the expectation that he is responsible for my happiness.
It is so weird to hear these things when you are hurting over his actions. The crazy thing is that there is some truth in what he says. Of course no one else can be responsible for your happiness. I was never able to describe in a way that he understood what I needed from him. I believe that ultimately each of us is responsible for our own happiness, but can’t our happiness be affected by someone’s behavior? He would say that he has moved on from the SA and the fact that I haven’t is my problem. I would say, well how convenient for you.
Anyway, I am thinking that it is the shame that would keep him from the ability to comfort and nurture me. My tears and pain would make him feel so bad about himself that he could not handle it. He handled that by getting defensive and protect himself from feeling bad about himself. He would project that I was making him feel bad about himself and was angry with me that I was doing that. He could not understand that it was himself that was making himself feel bad. He could not step out of himself in order to see that I was simply hurting and needed comfort.
I don’t know it is just crazy!! I don’t know if I am even making sense to you guys. I am sorry for the ramble, but I am just trying to make sense of it all. I know that I need to stop trying to make sense of it because you can’t make sense out of “crazy”. But somehow I feel like I can hover above the scene and look at what is happening. I can see that he is feeling shame and that is preventing him from moving forward. He does not love himself enough to trust that someone else could love him in spite of his faults. He fights admitting that his actions hurt someone else because it is to painful for him. So he tries to justify his behavior and downplay the resulting emotional reaction so that he can make believe that he is lovable. This is a false facade. He really does not love himself, he won’t allow himself to get deeper and feel the pain of his actions. All the while I am hovering above seeing all of this and hurting because I understand what is happening. I am sad because I can see beyond what he is doing and hoping and praying that he could get to that level of loving himself. I am full of sorrow as I watch our marriage fail because if I allow the facade to win, I am accepting to live my life in denial of the truth. In order to be authentic, I have to let him learn this lesson. I have to be strong and honor what I know to be the truth of my feelings. It hurts like hell, but in the long run living authentically with sorrow about the situation will feel better than living a facade in order to play out the dream of what I thought our marriage was.
So the next question is:
Do they have shame? If they are trying to “fake” recovery is it because they have no shame or is it because their shame is to big?Cindy,
Another wonderful and insightful post. In my opinion, and I grew up on a farm and spent most of my developmental years with animals, I think there are a few possible answers to your great question about shame. Here they are from my perspective:1. They have many defenses they have developed over many years to do what they do. When these defenses are lowered, and you start getting close to their real self. It’s disgusting and they know it. They don’t want to face it or admit it because then they would have to admit to themselves just how sick they are. Zoom back up the defenses go…therefore per them “I’m over it and you are responsible for your own happiness “. (translation:big crock of shit).
2. If they happen to be a sociopath, they don’t feel anything. The only thing they feel is anger when they don’t get what they want. They are pathological liars. Void of empathy, shame, remorse.
3. Yes they feel shame but know we know and they see we are not going back to the facade. We want to address it in a healthy manner. They really don’t want to stop so I think o will just exit this relationship, too much hassle.
These are some of my thoughts.
Love, Nap
Cindy, that’s my relationship with my own husband described perfectly. Scary, scary, how alike. If you read my ‘where’s the gratitude’ post, you’ll remember that my h couldn’t even muster up compassion for his stepchildren, who recently learned the family lie. These men lack empathy. They can’t feel anything that hasn’t happened/isn’t happening to them. I don’t think my sah is a true sociopath (my first husband was), but he is high up on the narcissism scale. I could be wrong, though. Maybe he’s psycho.
Great post, Cindy. I’ve read that the problem with SA’s is that they stay mired in shame, rather than feeling guilt. Apparently guilt is the healthier goal, because it focuses outward on to those they have hurt, rather than inward, as shame does. But focusing outward is not something that most of them have ever learned to do. So they often use flowery words, ‘you mean everything to me,’ ‘I hate what I’ve done to you,’ but their behavior doesn’t show it, because they’re still focused on themselves. And in my h’s case, after a bout of shame, when he cries a lot, he always turns around and goes robotic and defensive not long after, like a defense mechanism against his own shame. But if it were guilt he were feeling, in theory it would actually stick and his behavior would be different, because it wouldn’t be self-focused and self-protective. You know how when your conscience bothers you and you feel guilty for say, having hurt someone’s feelings? Your instinct is to make it right, to not have them hurt anymore, so it doesn’t occur to you to get defensive. You actually feel their pain, and you just want to make amends for hurting them. But I think for most SA’s, what they think is feeling our pain is really staying mired in their own shame. I guess it’s a subtle difference, but not so subtle when it comes to how they continue to treat us even though they say they feel our pain.
Love, Annie xoxo
Great observation. My h, however, doesn’t even claim to feel my pain–says he can’t because it’s not his.
After both days and mainly after I kicked him out my h was so remorseful and so sorry for his actions. I came to understand remorse is feeling bad for what you did, regret is what you feel when you are caught. I think his is all regret now. I haven’t seen any remorse since he was kicked out. I feel if he were truly remorseful he’d be checking in with me and admitting his slips before he got caught. He just lets me find them when the iPhone alerts come in. He’s a dick!
Dear for now:
I am glad you posted – and raised many good questions. I mean are they responsible for our happiness? that one really struck me. No they cannot be, really. but they are responsible to the marriage. Ultimately it is their failure to be responsible loving spouses, in the marriage, as agreed, that causes the rift, the pain, etc. I mean no, they themselves can’t really make us happy. but their behavior sure can, or, can’t. they ARE responsible for that.
I mean all this completely independent of each other in a marriage is crock of sh*t. it is not unhealthy codie. if you are a couple. to some extent I think our behavior and how we treat someone can make them happy or sad in that relationship. it goes for us also. but where addiction is concerned– well that is a different story. there is no making an addicted man happy. It is work they must do for themselves. we can encourage or support by setting boundaries for ourselves, make our lives more tolerable– but that is about it.
On the shame thing– well perhaps I am old fashioned. they should be ashamed. they feel shame because they are horribly sick individuals as evidenced by their behavior. shame away. it is idiotics. sorry. but what do they expect?
For me, it boils down to: I don’t want to be in a marriage with a man who could do so much damage to my spirit and soul and NOT want to do the things I need for him to do to help me heal.
Thank you, Pam!! I hate that ‘codie’ word. I mean, there’s that wedding song with the line, ‘the two will be as one.’ How the hell are we expected to not have some dependency on the person we join our life to? I just felt so befuddled at the one COSA meeting I went to. And you’re right that they should feel shame, but I think the problem is when they stay stuck in it, because they’re only looking at how shame makes *them* feel. And in my h’s case, when he feels bad about himself, his protective ego thing rises up and he gets all assholian on me.
for-now, I think that’s what I’m seeing from my h lately too..regret, not remorse. When I found out a couple of days ago that he’d been lying to me about yet another thing, he got pissy. There was no understanding of how much it hurt me yet again. Just defense, and then silence from him. They act like kids who get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
march, I think that’s the only healthy way to look at it. Sometimes I think I must have a streak of masochism, because I can’t seem to fully detach yet. There was a wonderful post by Karen where she asked if we would stay with someone who kept physically socking us in the gut. And then she said to look at how our guts feel when we interact with them, because it’s really the same thing going on.
Pam’s entire first paragraph explains how I feel about the happiness thing far better than I could explain. So I’m just going to ride her coat tails and say ditto.
I think discussing how we feel about what he has done is important. He needs to understand and accept how his actions have hurt you. If it were your feelings about anything else husbands should listen, care and empathize. This is no different. Partners need to love, care and support their spouse.
I do agree that as adults we should not be “punishing” one another for anything. And nobody should tolerate it. Since this is the case, his argument that what you are doing is “punishing” him puts him in the position of “being right.” What he doesn’t want to face is that this is not punishment but simply the serious ramifications for his actions.
I’ve never heard the term tragic shame. They SHOULD feel ashamed of their behavior. It’s a needed emotion when admitting that we’ve done wrong.
Things will be forever changed. Yes, he will always be held accountable for his behavior. Welcome to life.
As it has been discussed in lots of posts here, there is no doubt that sex addiction is a symptom of a greater problem. There are LOTS of symptoms of that greater problem. One of Them is selfishness. In order to have successful long term recovery I believe that core problem has to be addressed. And if he is working with a therapist with the true intention of changing his life then he’s going to need to address the selfishness. In my opinion his desire is to shut you up. Not because he’s ashamed but because he is selfish.
If they are in “fake” recovery I don’t think it’s an indication of whether they feel shame or not. I think it just means they simply don’t care, shame or no shame.
Your post made me remember a quote in a 12 step meditation book:
“we are healed of a suffering only by experiencing it in full”
-Marcel ProustWhy? So he never forgets the past. And to remember how recovery began and remember he is not cured. He needs to remember how he felt and how others felt. And he needs to listen to then in order to know how they felt.
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