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Yesterday, as I was driving home from work, I got to thinking about the list Diane was creating in the ‘help dealing with therapists’ forum. My head was a-jumble with everything we’d been discussing–about COSA, disclosure, trauma, and especially anger. I was thinking about all the times in the therapist’s office when I was stopped for “dumping” or for “shaming him” when what I was really trying to do was express my anger. That scenario would then manifest at home, with my h righteously accusing me of shaming him any time I expressed my anger and WHY I was angry. If, a few days after having learned he got blow jobs from random guys off Craigslist, I asked, “How am I supposed to deal with the fact that NOW I have to worry about women AND MEN,” I was shaming him.
I bought it, too, and tried to refrain from saying such things. So yesterday it occurred to me what a pile of horse shit that is. Instead of US being groomed to protect them in their recovery, why aren’t THEY taught to handle their own god-damned shame and let us say what we need to say in order to heal?! Why aren’t they tasked with transmuting their shame into acceptance and forgiveness for themselves so that they’re able to tolerate our necessary venting? Why is it WE are the ones who are expected to STUFF DOWN our feelings–our anger, our own shame, our intolerable pain, in order to spare them the SHAME of being reminded of their shameful actions? FUCK THAT! And why has it taken me so long to realize this?
Great point March. I totally agree. These addicts are treated with kid gloves and most need a big swift kick in the ass!!! My opinion of course.
Love, Nap
March,
I completely agree. When you tell the truth about what damage their behavior has done, they come back at you with these psychobabble labels that serve them to a T. You are so right, if we would just all get a clue, SHAME exists for a reason. You feel SHAME psychologically for the same reason you physiologically feel pain. Shame is a natural caution against a behavior that is DANGEROUS and POTENTIALLY damaging socially, emotionally, mentally or even physiologically. SHAME is a psychological danger signal saying “this behavior is going to cause HARM”.
The SAs know what they have done, and hidden, and minimized, and projected and are somehow successful in compartmentalizing or rationalizing, to the degree that they are eventually anesthetized to the shame. Like everything else, it takes a LOT more to even impact them. Then we find out, start talking about it, start feeling the pain, shock, anger, fear and they see the shame start to rear it’s ugly head and so they BLAME US for how the shame hurts them.
It’s not our fault. They just finally got to look it in the eyes.
It’s their shame, I say, they earned it 100%. I won’t wear it, no matter how they toss it back. Nobody should protect them, don’t the counselors tell us that children learn best through natural consequences? The shame is a consequence of their decisions. It’s awful for them. So? Good! Then maybe that’s a motivator to QUIT, for God’s sake.I am a little edgy, sorry for yelling. I just learned of a behavior more disgusting than any I’ve heard to date and the shame thing really hit home. I can’t look my H in the eyes at all, now. Can’t stop the images in my head. I don’t think I’ll make it through the plan I had. I am not going to take the classes, as that means I’ll have to stay here. I need to leave.
Hi Lynn,
I just want to say I’m really sorry you’ve been dealt another blow. I’m wondering if you can make an emergency appt with your therapist (I’m assuming you have one) . I had to do that once after my SA dropped a load of his life on me with no warning or support—an ambush disclosure event. My therapist said most therapists keep some appts open for just these things.Given that you are already re-thinking some of your plan and feeling cornered, maybe you need some help debriefing on this one.
Again, I’m hurting for you Lynn, and wish I could do more.
Diane.xo
Thanks, Diane. Wish I had happy things to say, don’t we all? I don’t have a therapist at this time. I went to a couple who just didn’t feel right at all and then lost the energy to keep looking.
Lynn, if you go to posarc.com, you’ll see how to contact Terre, a POSA coach. She is incredible, better than a therapist and not as expensive.
Dear Lynn,
I am sorry you are further hurt. I had the feeling something was up as you became quiet. I hope u can find someone to talk to. You can always tell us or arrange to call someone you trust and share with them? Don’t bring your pain to him Lynn…if you can help it. Karen xx
Dear All,
Ok…I almost brought this up a few days ago but was probably in trouble with something else. This “position” for lack of a better word,that we have to tread lightly in expressing our feelings in case we trigger their shame. What the f–k is that???? What I want to know is WHO established the tenet that these guys experience shame and better yet…who proved it? I think it one big crock. And just another excuse put in their arsenal and another weight put on our back. EVERYTIME I hear a partner say her SA accused her of initiating his shame with her pressure for answers I WANT TO SCREAM. I don’t know who dreamed this stuff up (Carnes?)but I don’t buy it because I cannot see any proof they are actually experiencing shame. To experience shame you have to have a conscience and we cannot even establish they have that. I mean, God Almighty….this entire sex addiction treatment program is like a bloody get out of jail card free? First, they decimate their wive’s lives and then are told it isn’t their fault because they are addicted to sex and cannot control themselves. Then they drag some half “insane with pain” partner in to support the prick and she is told she didn’t cause the problem and she cannot control it BUT she is sick herself and contributing to to his issues. Then he gets to keep ALL the information that the partner is desperate to know and that he doesn’t want to give ..to himself until some later determined “dislclosure” in which he and his therapist decide when, where and how much the partner should receive. The time leading up to this disclosure is spent by her in meetings, him in meetings and both in therapy…all of which focus on HIM and his stupid recovery.She is more or less left out in the cold OR told she has known all along and stayed because she has the lifelong disease of codependancy. When they both have been sufficently educated about his shame, her denial ect ect and other dubious elements of his “condition” a disclosure is decided upon….After that non-event(because usually so watered down) and the ensuing rage and pain it causes…the wife is NOT to share her strong feelings with him in case she escalates his shame.He is back to blocking ALL her questions with the usual lies, minimizations, omissions and now an entire new bag of tricks given to him by his CSAT and SA sponsor which apparently includes the asshole NOT having to feel bad about the horrible things he does. She,on the other hand…has to deal with a broken heart, a shattered life, a reeling mind, a million questions, a fractured self and now HIS SHAME??? Is it me? or is there something VERY wrong with this picture? Shame my ass! Its the lack of shame that got us all in this bloody mess. I hate these guys. Karen xx
PS suppose this should have gone in the therapy thread under #13 Do not mention his shame…EVER. 🙂
OMG kmf – you have said it so well!!! I have gotten that, but “I’m an addict-do you think it is going away just like that?” Or, We are made to feel like we have to walk on egg shells because we might upset the little darlins. Fuck That.
I don’t know how many times I have felt if I open my mouth and give an opinion to Steve, he will throw it back in my face and make it my problem. He argues, argues, argues, and continues the lieing, minimizing, omitting etc. The SA thrives on it.
I now refuse to even engage in a conversation with him regarding his addiction – no more chances for him to win once more!!
Great Post.Dear Sharron,
Bingo. You mentioned something in another post about how you had been dealing with him 3 years and still no progress? There is the proofyou needed? You are out in the middle of nowhere with Steve and he is STILL driving you crazy. The hard truth, Sharron ,is you have been letting him. He thrives on all this drama with the therapist and at home. Everytime you come up with a new technique to “TRY” to make him get it…he comes up with a new technique to deflect you…and he LOVES IT. He loves your frustration, your rage, your despair, your renewed efforts to change him. He feeds off all your energy. You are so right to just ignore him, Sharron, before he sucks you dry. This is just a game to him and you are right…he will keep winning, Sharron, because he doesn’t play fair. You can only change yourself Sharron. I hope this therapist can help you swing your focus to yourself. I know u feel you cannot let this go…but you can? It is really only a question of how much more pain and frustration you want to experience before you do? Big Hug Karen xx
Ya kmf-The therapist is working with me, and he is very good, at least I will find out for sure when I ask him if Steve fooled him on recording the TV shows. Steve is very clever. The therapist asked him if he has still been lieing to me, and he admitted it, however when asked about the TV he denied it to the hilt. Wonder if the therapist picked up on it-that will be the telling factor on whether he can help me or not. Will find out Monday. Don’t think he fools him, though, or he wouldn’t have said it is “about as good as it is going to get.”
I WILL LET THIS GO. Thanks for the support.
Hugs to you too.Thanks, March. I will check out that website. I guess I should be thankful there’s enough yuck still flying my way that I KNOW I have to make other plans. I bit the bullet and went to financial aid today and it looks like I can do my classes. I signed up. Figure I’ve got to be somewhere, might as well be working on my classes for BSN while I’m there, til this all caves in or I explode from rage.
Karen,
You made some great points. How do you personally deal with your h behavior? Are you living together or are you living seperately?Love, Nap
Terre’s response to my thoughts about shame: “We spouses have been carrying the addict’s shame and travails for too long.If we throw off that with a fit of anger, it is a GREAT thing. How dare we HAVE to treat the addict like a fragile piece of crystal and the spouse like an accessory of the addict. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! We derserve to express our rightful rage. My thoery is that exterior anger re-associates actions, shame and consequences and makes shame something that can be worked with—in other words, gettting blasted for his crap is GOOD for the addict.”
Wow Karen,
I didn’t realize you lived so far apart. If you don’t mind me asking and please don’t answer if you don’t want to, what is your relationship with your h? Do you talk to him on a regular basis or are you estranged? Do you ever see him? I guess I’m just curious to be honest.
Love, NapDear Nap,
What is my relationship with my H? It is f–ked up like everyone elses. I have spent approx 7 weeks in his company since June 2010. He works in Africa. He was working a 5 week on and 5 week off rotation but now he is permanently based there. The first year we were apart I had almost no contact with him. In the last 6 months I have had more…mostly on MSN.He was here when my Mom died. I am selling out for the money, Nap, after careful consideration of my options. I could go into all that but why bother. I already feel like he stole my life. I was determined he was not going to leave me struggling and penniless in my old age too. It isn’t an ideal situation but there are worse…as in having to live permanantly with the idiots? Now that he is permanent in Africa, he wants me to come live there part of the time or at least visit. Even if I do that he will only be where I am 1 day a week because he is based in a camp, a plane ride away. I am currently living with my Dad and sister in Canada and slowly losing my mind. My Mom died recently and it did nothing to improve my family’s dysfunction. It has been a bad few months. I feel I cannot think straight and I have little real support. I cannot stay in Canada indefinately because of tax reasons and I am not sure where I want to go. An upscale apt on a tropical beach with no one in it but me is starting to sound pretty good. 🙁 Longterm that isn’t the answer though. We often fantasize about running away ( why I asked the question) and starting over. But starting over in a new country without any support is very daunting and I think that is why I am so unsure what to do next. I wish I had a family who could be more supportive and a network of friends that was established. But my lifestyle resulted in friends strung around the 4 corners of the earth and home is no longer really home to me. I can blame my husband for a great deal in my life but I cannot blame him for my lack of ability to decide how to go forward. Karen xx
kmf-I am selling out for the money too, but lately am beginning to re-think my decision. His dtr. called tonight, (the one he objectified) and the ptsd kicked in immediately-started shaking. Is the money worth it? Probably not.
Wish it would work that my husband was in another state/country and only had to see him occasionally. That would be the life!!Well, to be honest I haven’t found that distance removes the trauma I feel. The damage is done inside us so I guess it has to be undone inside us. Still….I felt like God might be throwing me a bone with my H’s job being made a permanent thing.It gives me some much needed time to work on me…. For that I am grateful. Karen xx
Karen, am I remembering correctly that you’re from Ireland? My fantasy is this: I move to a cozy cottage on the Aran Islands. I have a flock of Cheviot sheep, I spin wool, and design knitwear for sale to Neiman Marcus and other upscale stores. (Obviously I haven’t worked out the details or I’d be there doing this right NOW.) Anyway, Karen, is there no going back to Ireland for you? Love, Liza (who wishes more than anything that she lived in Ireland!) Slainte!
Dear Liza,
I am Irish/Canadian but born in Canada. Irish mother. 🙂 Many people fantasize about the Emerald isle and it does still have QUIET, mystical corners. I don’t know about you living there, Liza, BUT Irish property has crashed in the last 2 years. If there was ever a time to buy an Irish cottage this is it….. I have considered Ireland and England. Both lovely countries. Karen xx
Liza, that’s my fantasy too.. well, not the designing part, since I am artistically impaired.. but to have a cottage in Ireland..the Dingle Peninsula maybe. My dad was from a tiny town in Tipperary and something about that country still pulls at me. Maybe the reality wouldn’t live up to the fantasy, but it’s fun to think about. xoxo
Karen, I have actually been researching buying a little place there…. You’re right, the prices are WAY down. Annie, the Dingle Peninsula is SO lovely, one of my favorite places in all of Ireland. And if I’m not mistaken, you could claim Irish citizenship by way of being a child of an Irish citizen. So it’s settled, we’re all moving!
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