- This topic has 138 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I’m glad this is helping.
I want to say I’m still thinking about this whole “egoic” recovery piece. I think I’m on to something. And it’s what I think March is describing when she talks about how the narc looks in our eyes and no longer sees who he likes to think he is. Some of the “fake” recovery that we talk about is likely this “egoic” recovery.
By egoic recovery I mean a recovery that accomplishes something of what therapy is all about — the putting back together of the broken ego. BUT, because it is first stage repair, and not touching the depth of spiritual formation (which is where another power point is located that shapes who we are—its not just about faith, it’s about the carriers of meaning and everybody has those), an egoic recovery “appears” like healing but when a carrier of meaning that has not been touched, evaluated, changed or emptied of power, the ego just reverts back to serving it.
Okay, i know this may sound heavy, but this is actually my sandbox and I think I’m on to something/we’re onto something.This is also why, perhaps, they default to the religious stance. It supports their agenda symbolically. Certainly Jeff does that. He did it in that nasty blog—-we were all so far away from God (his words exactly). But that is also false. The religious stuff only works if it protects their REAL carriers of meaning which could be things like patriarchal assumptions, etc.
Well I ruminate some more. Keep posting your thoughts. It helps.
wow diane, definitely worth ruminating on. not sure i deeply understand, but i agree. you are on to something.
ok, here’s a stab. i’m not sure, but — is our anger coming from the carrier of meaning place? and challenges them on that deeper level to face that place in them honestly instead of the more surface ego healing?
Yes Lisak, you are getting it. Our anger comes from the carrier of meaning that we believe is at stake or threatened. Edwin Freidman talks about our the most intense emotional gather around the symbols or carriers of meaning in our lives. (sidebar–this is all about the model I co-created and use in my new business with organizational development and coaching etc.) So I’m really angry because several carriers of meaning (or symbols) are at stake in this discussion—professional integrity, honesty, the equality of women, the use/abuse of sacred texts, choosing to be follower of Jesus. These are symbols in my life (just a few, of course) and they shape my spirit and are core for me. My heart, soul and mind need to be in constant dialogue with each other so that I am not one giant contradiction incarnate.
What I want to know is how the carriers of meaning in the SA’s have been corrupted, lost or created so that they are now not recognizable to us as human beings. And how is that “fake recovery” thing a part of this question.
Well, I am about to blow deep and meaningful right out of the fucking water ( sorry Diane, you really are onto something)
Every single solitary time one of these guys bring up God it makes me puke. Don’t you DARE fuck hookers and then have the nerve to talk to me about God. You run around and pretend to be spiritual or blame your parents that they never took you to church or babble on about living a spiritual/God centered life all you want. But don’t try that shit with me.
Go ahead, live a God centered or spiritual life all you want but do not think for one fucking second that I am God. I am a human being. Maybe you should explore humanity before you become a fucking expert on God.
ANd….
in his fateful blog, Jeff makes a big point about SA’s being human beings and how we aren’t supposed to refer to them SA’s, they have a name, blah blah blah. And it just feels to me that the real request here is for the whole SA dimension of their being to be compartmentalized and isolated from their whole formation as human beings. And I don’t believe it can be. This is back to the treating the behaviours as if they isolated from PD’s etc. It is the Semitic totality concept that underlines how wrong that is. We are a whole. And Sex addiction (for want of a better vocabulary) has invaded the WHOLE of their humanity. And Jeff makes that point for us perfectly when he resorts to shaming our anger, judging our relationship with God, being offended by our rejecting his help, presenting himself as the wise owl who “forgives” the woman who posted, and then insisting that being an SA is NOT who someone is. When actually, I think it just might be, unless the therapeutic journey actually brings those colluding carriers of meaning to the surface where they can be critiqued, transformed, rejected, and better ones created.I’m just sayin….
i believe one of the factors contributing to their corruption is the refusal by therapists, the legal system and society in general to hold them truly accountable.
an addict will do whatever they can get away with. they learned this at an early age as a coping strategy for their wackiness. they are weak and pathetic and won’t hold themselves accountable unless those that are stronger do.
and no one is asking that of them. (except us, and ‘wives’ historically and presently have less powerful positions in society)– so why would they make any attempts to face their carriers of meaning? they don’t have to.
they have lifetimes of not facing consequences. they have a lifetime of interaction with a society that accepts their behaviour and permits the corruption of their souls through acceptance of the abuse. and denial of the victimization.
My 12 year old son is more capable of understanding his “sins” than any of these SA’s.
They have been outed and that is the only thing they know to cling to…..12 steps and God. And the “I am a person”. Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit and double Bullshit.
Yes, they were traumatized in some way as a child. Yes they deserve a chance at grace and forgiveness ( not necessarily by us). We are already human. Anger is normal and natural.
They are never held accountable for the “fatal flaw”. Read the Greek tragedies. There is always a fatal flaw. These guys are the definition.
if that is a rhetorical question, scream it from the fucking roof tops! practically, i have no idea. but this is great stuff. you go diane. lili at posarc might have some ideas… she would love this.
Well enough about Jeff, I think. Poor patsy set himself up and severely underestimated who he was talking to.
Bev, you are absolutely in the zone on this. Let me reveal your brilliance further, if I may.
The Greek work for sin is (phonetically—my keys won’t do greek alphabet here) “hamartia”. That is the word used in the New Testament. BUT, the important piece here is that it is the SAME Greek word that was used in the even more ancient texts of the Greek tragedies to describe that “tragic flaw” we all understand. So your thinking is bang on.Oh that was fun. I haven’t been doing Greek much lately. Thanks Bev. And you just let it fly sister about religious crap. You are a profound soul, and emptying out the garbage leaves room for all the good stuff!
d.xo
With anger there is strength. With anger there are decisions made. They cannot handle the anger because the recovery model focuses on what good people they really are, you know down deep (yeah right!). When I hear from my SA how his group of 12 steppers are good guys, I lose my mind. I told him sorry anyone who screws a whore and acts out with porn is not a good guy, they’re just not.
My SA made a remark about deserving the anger. I told him he deserved a gun to his head. I told him he certainly didn’t deserve reconciliation. That was my weekend…
I think if someone does us wrong, really wrong we have the right to be angry. Why do we care what the fuck they are thinking?
What makes me the most angry is that they are given a “Get out of jail free card”. No matter what these bastards chose to do for the rest of their days can now be excused by their therapists, their 12 stepper buddies, their family, thier sponsor, and ultimately society. This label is the armor they wear – proudly I might add. This label makes me sick and I don’t buy it. It’s a choice – it just is.
Thank you Diane…I need my brilliance illuminated 🙂
Yes, it is called a “tragic flaw”….I love the Greek stuff. I think Oedipus was a narc big time.
My Pastor had an affair with my Sunday School teacher. She committed suicide and the Pastor moved to another church. Her husband never smiled again to my knowledge and her son was in school with me. He was not a very happy boy.
I get a little riled up about people dragging to church and that making them a good person….
Good is not found in Church. Good is not found. Good just is.
I have a general understanding of what Diane is saying. Sometimes she loses me because she is much smarter and deeper than I am. 😉 Getting back to the anger thing first. I see it this way. All abuse victims are very angry and we are all victims of abuse, so it follows that we are angry as well. When a battered woman seeks help, she is given counsel to help her understand all the different ways she is being abused, apart from the physical. The therapists help her to recognize tactics such as gas lighting, controlling and the other forms of psychological abuse that her husband employs. She is encouraged to get as far away from him as she can, as quickly as she can. She is warned that he is dangerous and she is often provided a safe house where he cannot reach her. Now. Think about what happens when we seek help? We are told we helped to create the problem, told we need to join a support group to address our disease, told to remain with our husbands for at least a year, because somehow we can have a deeper marriage and told we have consider his childhood trauma and develop compassion for him. And the final request….do NOT show him your anger because he is too fragile for that and he will need LOTS and LOTS of time and so will you, because at no time will it EVER be appropriate for you to express outrage, at the abuse you suffered at his hands. Do you all see the problem with this picture? No one explains to us how dangerous our husbands are ,even though they risk our mental and physical health repeatedly. No one encourages us to leave…we are encouraged to stay and support them. No one provides us with a safe place to heal, instead we are often being counselled by someone who has done to others, exactly what our husbands did to us. And most importantly, no one describes our abuser as an abuser. He is a sexual compulsive, or a sex addict, or a victim of childhood trauma or a person with a disease BUT he is never an abuser….even though he uses and in engages in ALL but one of the behaviours that domestic abuse therapists attempt to protect their clients from? Apparently, he isn’t one of those guys?? Really? Who says so? In my book, our anger lives on because our abuse is unrecognized. It is a catch 22. They need the SA to be a curable victim so they can drain his bank account. If he is the victim, then what are we?? Our experience has been discounted and our abuse minimized and ignored. Now there is a trauma model floating around BUT it still isn’t sufficiently addressing the fact that we were abused for sometimes decades at the hands of our husbands. It is like a pat on the head saying “yes, we know you are upset and traumatized BUT you still really ought to check out that Cosa group.” Minwalla may be the one exception to what I am saying. Even Barbra Steffens is minimizing how serious their behaviour is to us….because she is protecting one of them. Then they wonder why we are angry??? I don’t. We are willing to fly thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars just to hear one man say, “I know what he did to you.” I believe there is a direct correlation between our rage and their preposterous treatment model and as long as they continue to be mollycoddled in some 12 step program, that does not recognize what they are and what they do to women….we will remain angry about it.
Karen xxI understand what Diane is brilliantly saying and I totally agree this is happening in the world. We just don’t have to buy into it at all. I realize we are a select group and there are many poor woman out there who are being misdirected and ‘blamed’. Had I not found SOS I’d likey be one of them.
Why not a journal article in a respected womans magazine or journal? Diane you’re a great thought leader and writer.
- The forum ‘Sex Addiction Treatment Center And Counselor Reviews’ is closed to new topics and replies.