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That’s tough Bev. I guess we just want them to ‘get it’ on their own. When they are sober they can’t get their head around why they cheated. It is like it is some other person. If they don’t understand themselves it is going to be difficult for them to understand us.
I know what you mean by the focus on the shame. I can have quite a long conversation with my husband about all the ‘stuff’ but then he can just switch off and I can see the conversation is going to go nowhere. It peeves me off. He is a lot better than he used to be but heck I wish I could switch off from it. I think if you have a question then they have to answer it. Full stop. I wonder sometimes if they are protecting us or themselves.Bev, you sound like you’re in pretty much the same place I am. (Except that your h sounds much less unpredictable than mine.) But the frustration with what still seems like canned responses..It’s hard to put one’s finger on, but it’s that kind of thing that I just can’t deal with anymore. On the surface it might look ok, but it’s just not. It just doesn’t flow or something. Still feels scripted. I can even cut him some slack and say that he can’t help it, that it’s just too many years of him being like that. But I feel empty. xoxo
Bev, a thought that came to mind while I read your post was maybe he cleans up your mess because he can’t clean up his own (internally). It’s kinda symbolic.
Does anyone on here have a husband whose ever answered questions full stop, walls down, wife’s feelings the most important consideration…in a consistent way? not just when she was out the door or asking him to go out the door? or at the beginning of a conversation, but when it gets tough, he gets going? I don’t in any way mean this to sound disrespectful, but that definitely has not been my experience, and after reading these posts, got curious…is it anyone’s experience?
Bev, my therapist says what you are describing with your husband and his therapist and you not wanting your husband’s therapist to be a part of your marriage is what my therapist calls “triangulation with the therapist” and the wife is left on the outside, she’s says it’s not therapist dependent, but dependent directly on the SA and his desire to have another layer or protection between him and real emotions or the beginnings of intimacy with his wife or owning any choices or decisions within the marriage. He essentially uses his therapist as a block to communication and intimacy with his wife. I don’t know that they are conscious of it and certainly don’t know that’s what your husband is doing, but my therapist says she sees it very often with sex addicts. For example, your husband won’t stop violating your space when YOU ask him to, but he does when the therapist asks him to? Whose the most important person in that marriage? unfortunately, maybe not you. I have a friend who said she felt like she should ask her husband’s therapist some questions, she didn’t know nearly enough about him if he was going to be part of the marriage.:)I thought she was joking at the time, now I get what she was talking about.
Catherine, I don’t think any of these men are protecting “us” when they don’t answer questions full stop if we are asking them and want the answers. They just say that, or maybe imply that. It’s not their job to decide what we as adult women need, it’s ours. They can only protect us with the truth and with transparency, consistently , EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I don’t want a husband who protects me by not telling me the truth or omitting details he thinks I don’t need if I’ve asked for them, I want a husband who protected me all along with the truth and honesty and transparency, or at least one who makes a commitment to do that from the point of d-day forward ( mine did not) and I would only want a husband who did that EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. , no matter how difficult or awful it was for them to speak the truth out loud to the woman they say they love more than anything or anyone.
P.S. Ive been in a mood lately, too. I’m blaming it on my frustration about my broken wrist, but who knows? I might just be in a mood, even if I didn’t have one.Interesting thought NAP.
But your post Bev, resonated with my experience with my ex. He had real boundary issues with my personal space and personal items. He would do things like that too, and I would try and carve out one damn place that I could have, but there wasn’t one. I don’t think it’s incidental Bev. I think it is part of the whole thing somehow. It’s so strange to think that intimacy is so hard for them, but they invade your privacy in other ways.And yes, that therapy speak is grounds for murder, I think. Also that shit they suggest at the 12 step fuck up meeting.
Anniem, to hear you say you feel empty breaks my heart. Here’s some pixie dust just for you.
D.xo
Also Courtney, that triangulation thing. I had it in spades.
I called his therapist his “new mother” and refused to participate in anything as long as she was involved. And he used her to create distance and end the marriage.I’ve told my office that I need to sell my house and mountain home this spring. A fellow worker asked if I’m getting divorced. I told her that I’m not sure, but probably. In any case, I just need to sell off these homes. She sat me down and had a long talk with me about her story. She’s my age, with similarly aged children. A long story short, she said that no one ever told her the down sides of divorce. She divorced her cheating husband 4 years ago. She’s had a really hard time of it. Just food for thought. Our state is “no fault” and her divorce left her with little. This happened during the depths of the recession and they lost their home. He’s still a lawyer and has recouped losses, but she doesn’t have anything to show for the life that she built with him. She says that she’s tried to meet and has had a few boyfriends, but that it’s too easy for guys to have “connections” with women with no strings attached.
Perhaps a bit of “the devil I know” scenario. I feel that my h has been making huge changes and really wants to be healthy. He quit drinking, lost 25 pounds and works out with me everyday (this includes walking the dogs and going to yoga with me). Things that never would have been on his radar in the past. For now, I’m willing to see what continued changes occur.Courtney, I’m not sure if this answers your question but my experience with my H is that he is really trying to make things right with me. I haven’t asked him any specific questions since we are approaching a formal disclosure, but I do feel like he is working hard with his CSAT. I don’t get any “therapy speak” from him but maybe he just hasn’t gone long enough to pick it up? What he told me recently is that if he feels like he is a 4 on a scale of 1 to 10 of “major life fuck ups” when he walks into his weekly therapy session, he feels like an 8 or higher on the same scale when he leaves. I don’t know if that indicates that he “gets it” or that his therapist does. Maybe both. As I’ve said before, his CSAT shares office space with Barbara Steffens so if anyone is going to get the partner’s feelings, I’m guessing it’s him.
We also had a discussion the other night about the need to work on communication skills (both of us). My H is a very direct guy. He has no trouble letting anyone know when something is bothering him and yet, he does not do that with me and I don’t do it with him. We both know we need to work on this, and other aspects of good communication if we are to have any hope of moving forward. That is all the blame or accountability I will accept – that we were not communicating well but I only accept that much because my H has made it clear that ALL of this is his fault.
I agree Courtney, they should be answering questions. Full stop! I think when some of these men don’t answer questions readily it is a lot about not hurting their wife further but also a little about protecting themselves from further shame.
Ali that post was really interesting. Do you think you are capable of forgiving?
I think my husband wants to be healthy too. I think he is a much more settled man than he has been in the past. His moods at work are under control as well. It would be nice if he lost 25 pounds but I don’t think that’s going to happen!MJ,
I’ve chosen to divorce my husband of 36 years. He had what I thought was his only affair 20 years ago. We nearly divorced but fought through it and stayed together. Last spring I found out he was having another affair, his “2nd” affair and I immediately sought a divorce attorney. I knew how hard it had been to rebuild trust after the first affair and I did not want to go through that again.
Long story short, he confessed to being an “SA” and to multiple affairs starting early in our marriage. It has been devastating as we all know to find out the depth of his betrayal.
I am standing by the young me from 20 years ago. I had set a boundary back then, if he ever cheated on me again I was out and I am. I’m embarrassed to say how many times he violated that boundary. Yes, he is in recovery, seemingly trying hard but has already “strayed” once. The odds of his recovery are just too scary for me. I can’t take anymore slams. Yes, I love(d) him but I have to love myself more.
And yes, it’s hard either way, go or stay, but my chances of being healthy are better on my own. My word of advice is prepare however you can to protect yourself financially even if you are committed to staying. Have an exit strategy. It will help you feel stronger no matter the situation.Thanks for sharing all the heartfelt stories above.
KandiceAww thanks, Diane. I don’t feel empty about everything though, just that I seem to come up empty when I think about how I feel about him, partner-wise. I have this disturbing thing going where it seems a lot of what I feel for him these days is more along the lines of pity, and viewing him as a kid. It doesn’t bode well. xoxo
Exactly, when I get pulled into his recovery for his “illness” I feel like his mother. Don’t want to be that for him, especially since I believe he has the Madonna/whore mindset.
Daisy I only just had a chance to read your post. I have been a bad communicator also. I am trying to work on this but when you have been your own counsel for 50 years it is hard to break.
I’m with you there Catherine. I am extremely non-confrontational in my own life (weird for a lawyer, I know). I have no problem confronting anyone on someone else’s behalf but can’t seem to do it on my own behalf. And I’m very bad about communicating my own needs within my personal relationships. It just doesn’t feel safe to me. I’m working on why that is with my therapist. I mentioned this before in another post, I read a “Boundaries” book by Henry Cloud and John Townsend (there is a whole series of them) that my H’s CSAT gave to him to read as homework before the disclosure. It was very helpful and had lots of good information about how to have difficult conversations.
Catherine, are you seeing a therapist? I don’t see a CSAT, I see a “regular” therapist who is brilliant at helping me work on me as well as dealing with issues resulting from my H’s SA.
That’s great Daisy and Catherine, that your husbands seem to be honestly trying. I didn’t get many direct answers and somehow ended up feeling guilty and bad for asking any questions, major gas lighting and you two don’t seem to have that:)
Before mine started working with his CSAT I used to get a lot of the “why can’t you just move on?” “Why are you constantly dwelling in the past?” bullshit when I wanted to talk about anything relating to what I thought then was a single affair. That is why I am insisting on working on communication skills before the disclosure. I want to be sure that he understands that the disclosure is the beginning of the process of fixing what he broke, not the end of it! I can and will discuss anything I choose without recrimination from him or we are done.
No I don’t have a therapist Daisy. I have tried 4. I plan on going to the Minwalla Intensive in June. I hope that will help but I know that I need to do some work on myself aside from dealing with the SA. My family didn’t talk about anything ’emotional’. I always felt not quite good enough so never discussed any problems with my parents. Even when my sister’s fiancee molested me I couldn’t tell my parents (too embarrassing). I didn’t tell my sister because I didn’t want to upset her so they went on and got married. I told my 15 year old friends so you can imagine the sage advice I got on that one. I am the same as you, I will defend others until the cows come home but I am my own worst advocate. When it comes to my own needs I don’t like to cause conflict and I don’t like to upset or hurt people. I rarely discuss my problems with others so I give the appearance of being capable and ‘together’ when inside I’m far from it. I’m in a mess trying to sort problems out with myself.
I hope you can find a good therapist Catherine. It was hard for me to feel comfortable talking about myself at first but it is the best thing I’ve ever done for myself. It has made a tremendous difference in my life as have all of you wonderful sisters!
Catherine, I will second Daisy. I went thru 3 therapist and I am now finally with one that seems to actually get it. I have only been 3 times but so far so good. He hears me. I can tell a difference. I even discussed with him about the “cracks” and he was very helpful with that.
Since I am living with my H, I have a very up close and personal view. I also throw out stuff just to see how he responds….If there is any hope of working any of this out then it takes tons of work from both parties. I don’t mean that codependent BS. I mean healing yourself and knowing that you are not stuck. That you can leave him and be okay. That is when you can consider working on any “relationship” if you want.
This crazy doc has helped me a lot in 3 visits. Keep looking for someone that you can connect with Catherine.
I’m going to my first CSAT meeting in an hour from now. I’m having a real panicky feeling. I thinking I’ll ex
Oops…
I think I’ll explode if she starts in the any co-dependent fault of mine. But I really need some help. I’m so mean to my h sometimes, and I just really can’t help it. I didn’t used to be like this. I need to be able to talk to someone in the flesh about what this has done/is doing to me. I haven’t told my parents – I’m way too horrified to try to explain it, and I’m embarrassed that I picked such a loser to marry. TearsOh Ali, I went thru every bit of that and still do sometimes. You are doing so well for such a short time. If she starts the co dependent shit just get up and walk away. I learned that little trick the hard way too 🙂
Thanks, Bev. I’m heading out the door right now. I really feel shaky, but am hoping that maybe she can help. I’ll report back later.
Ali of course you are mean to your husband and of course you can’t help it. My father died 2 years ago and I didn’t tell him. I wrote him a letter about it and I asked the funeral director to put it into his casket. I have told no-one except a couple of close friends and even then not the ins and outs (no pun intended). I feel the embarrassment and shame too Ali and I don’t want to be seeing pity on people’s faces or questioning if the marriage is real if we stay together. Funny isn’t it but you can intellectualise about this not being our shame or embarrassment but it isn’t easy not to have those thoughts and feelings.
Ali I have been a screaming raving lunatic at times and my husband takes it and I expect him to. It is just the hurt getting out.
Bev 4 counsellors on and I’m really scared to go to another. It is as if they take a little bit of you each time.My DDay was 8 months ago. He faked recovery for several months. The holidays were great, we were talking about having baby number 2. Then in January I found evidence of more call girls. I was devastated and mad. We started couples therapy and I expressed my anger. My hair was even falling out. Then the day after Valentines Day he tries to remove me from bank accounts and tells me that its over and he doesn’t have time to talk to me. He had already spoken to an attorney about divorcing me. I know that I should be glad to have him gone, but I miss him so much. He use to see call girls at lunch and I also found out that he had other random affairs with women he met through work. My daughter and I were his normal front to the world. I loved having our family. My daughter is only 2 and he was a great dad. How could he be over me just like that? He said that he can’t be happy with me. We were together 12 years and he dumps me like I’m dirt on his shoe. Why do I still miss him so much? This is so painful.
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