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What everyone else said, Anne. There’s so much wisdom here and I still feel so uneducated at times . . .
Diane wrote: “They have one song to sing and they just keep singing it ‘it takes two to ruin a marriage’.”
Yeah, a Sex Asshole and his hooker. Or his coworker. Or his “friend.”
I DO like SA standing for Sex “Asshole” instead of “Addict.” Thank you, Liza!
Anne,
When it counts, you trusted yourself. Not your SA, not the absolutely useless therapist. Give yourself credit where it’s due.
He’s in denial.
The couple counseling needs to stop until he is long, long past denial and at least a year into actual recovery preferably with someone of Minwala’s caliber if treatment.
Aren’t these sister’s the greatest to share with?
You spotted the faking. That’s awesome.
You are all amazing. Thank you so much for the support. His new tack is to say I’m keeping thevkids away from him. He wants them every weekend from fri-sun but I don’t think that’s reasonable as, guess what, he hasn’t had five minutes for them until now and now he thinks it’s kosher to be solely responsible for two toddlers for forty eight hours. I said no, that twenty four hours was best for the kids but I’m scared a court will think that I’m somehow depriving him of time w the kids (as he works long hours and really only has freevtime on weekends). How did you all deal w negotiating time w the kids?
Also, Liza, when you say he’s following the play book, what can I expect next? I feel like i need to prepare myself. It’s like a new thing each day w him. Like he’s trying on explanations to see what will work, when the only thing that would actually engage me is the TRUTH, something that is simply not in him.
Oh Anne, to be honest with you…you can expect nothing but heartache from here on out. But short-term? Expect behavior ranging from ‘loving’ (calculated and devious efforts with the end goal of keeping you second-guessing yourself) to out-right lunacy (all-out bingeing). He will try anything and everything he can think of to maintain the ‘status quo’ and to keep you ‘in line’. He will expect you to ‘move on’ and to ‘forget about the past’ as he’s either ‘changed’ or ‘didn’t really do anything’ or what he did ‘didn’t mean anything’. Expect some serious gaslighting. Anne, your best bet is to have as little contact with him as possible right now… You need space and time to figure out what the fuck just happened to you. Above all, remember this…you owe him ABSOLUTELY nothing. Not even the time of day. Don’t let him convince you otherwise. Sending you strength for the battles ahead. Love, Liza
Here are some moves out of the playbook….
So – your SA is on Page 1 of the book…so far, you’ve gotten the:
1) Look how wonderful I am!! – I went to a therapist. Isn’t that enough?
2) When are you going to get over this?
Next you will get:
Minimization:
3) You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I only screwed hookers for 1 year (not 5 years) and only did xxxxx with them…and I always wore protection so no need for an STD test. I was very careful.
4) Oh – that text/email that you saw that I sent to xxx – I was just joking. It was meant to be funny and I was bragging to her about the other stuff I did.
5) She was just a friend. What’s wrong with sexting? It meant nothing – it was just for fun.
6) I’m not an addict – I can stop this at any time. My friend stopped drinking and he never went to meetings or a therapist. I stopped seeing hookers ages ago (before the Craigslist ads and affairs) so I know I can stop this, too.
7) Those guys at the 12 step meetings are soooooo bad. Geeeeezzzz. My sponsor said that if I don’t have daily urges, then I’m not an addict. Thank god!! I’m not going to meetings anymore. I’m so lucky.
Shame
8) Who did you tell about this? OMG….they know? You have really shamed me….it’s going to make my recovery so much harder now.
Rationalization and Lying
9) Well – you were depressed and weren’t there for me – so I went to hookers….and then that wasn’t enough for me, so then I began having affairs.
10) The affairs weren’t connected to the hookers – I was in a “trance” and I couldn’t help it.
11) I just answered Craigslist ads for the “fun” of it – to see if they would respond.
12) I only met her for coffee. We didn’t click. Nothing happened, I swear.
13) I don’t need an intensive or anything like that – stay on YOUR side of the street. You are such a co-dependent. I’m going to do this at my own pace. I have so much going on at work, life, etc. to really focus on it right now.
14) You can’t throw me out of my own house. I have a right to live here with my kids, too.
15) I’m just went on your phone to try and erase those Craigslist ads that you found – I don’t want you to dwell or be upset with them, so I was just trying to find them to erase them and protect you.
16) Don’t you trust me?
17) I know I don’t deserve your trust – but I swear, I’ve got nothing to hide. I’m an open book.
18) A disclosure would just keep us too focused on the past. Let’s just move on. We are doing great now – let’s not worry over the past. I was sick. I’m cured now.
19) I don’t need therapy – my 12 step groups are enough.
20) I don’t need 12 step groups anymore. I am cured.
Gas Lighting
21) I think you are mentally ill and need help. You should be over this by now.
22) Are you having an affair? You are so secretive.
23) It was just an affair (porn) – my attorney says that you are villifying me. I’m going to protect myself and the kids from you.
Many of us have gotten the same playbook quotes thrown at us. I’m sure you will hear any number of these tactics….keep an ear out for them and thrown the red flag. They are very sly – and you won’t necessarily recognize them right away, but you will no doubt, hear them. It’s part of their game.
Let us know which ones you hear next…. (btw – I’ve heard all of these from my SAH, except the last one, at one point or another).
Deb
Another possible scenario goes like this: He appears to be doing all the right things, like he’s checking off a list. Goes to meetings. Goes to therapy. Does an excruciatingly slow execution of the 12 steps. He engages you in conversations about God and the Meaning of Life. He seems more present and connected…He “sees” you and the kids and seems surprised by you, delighted almost…Think about it: All that time and energy he spent doing fuck-stuff has to go somewhere else. Sure, a lot of it goes into trying NOT to fuck hookers or cruise Craigslist, but he still has to distract himself, so why not give YOU and the kids a little of that new attention. This will surprise HIM. He’ll see himself as a changed man, the man he was intended to be, the man he always has been until his “sickness” robbed him of himself. He’ll expect you to be just as awed and surprised. You’re getting some of this already, but it tends to get worse in recovery. He’ll get his Narcissistic fix from his therapist and his group, and he’ll expect it from you too. And when you don’t give it to him, when you ask him to direct his attention to the wreck of your life, to the dessimation of your marriage, to your PTSD, he WILL NOT GET IT. He will only see his progress, his Victory. He’ll be so much happier without the guilt, the shame, the secrecy, and he’ll be baffled that his happiness is not contagious. You’ll still be having flashbacks, days where you can barely get out of bed, and he’ll be merrily on his way. He will start to see you as damaged goods, only without the understanding that HE caused the damage. He won’t like your tone, your expression, anything you do that reminds him of what he did, what he is. He will see you as an impediment to his recovery, to his newfound happiness. He’ll say, “We could be happy. You could have everything you always wanted. If you could only move forward.” It’s awesome.
It’s pretty scary that all of the things you all are saying sound totally in line w my h. He has definitely already started down this road. He feels good, he’s getting better, why cant I get over it and move on.
How do I even think about salvaging a relationship w this person? Why would I want to?
Any thoughts about how to deal w managing negotiations about him seeing the kids? I just don’t want to come across as trying to keep the kids from him (particularly if this ends up going the way of the court system), but I also think it’s unreasonable for him to see them every weekend, all weekend.It is unreasonable. You set out what YOU think is reasonable, given his “delicate” condition and the history of his parenting, and you stick with that until he or you gets an attorney that advises differently. You don’t negotiate with a psycho.
I don’t mean to alarm you but you need an attorney ASAP. you never ever really know what these guys will do. Remember, you are threatening his carefully constructed, fragile “reality”. They are like caged animals….
Get legal advice quick. You have to be aware of how some of these guys have been behaving during a divorce …. Teri, Lyn, Nap, Pam, Harmony ( separation), Cindy..etc. Get help and protect yourself.
Anne,
Great info from everyone. My thoughts on your kids. It’s unreasonable for him to think he can have them the whole weekend every weekend. From the toddlers perpective and needs I think it would not be good, especially since he hasn’t spent much time in the past with them. Like Bev and others said, find a good attny and have a consultation with them about your concerns. Plus you need to protect not only your children but also your own interests (finances, living, ect). IMO no one would see his request as rational and your young toddlers can’t be without their Mom for that long. You’re the rational parent. It’s hard and I think you need help with all of this.
Love, NapMy boys are were young adults when everything blew up, but I have some experience from work life about these guys and their “visitation” requests. Definitely work through a lawyer. That forces him to get one. Often that stops the whole thing because they don’t really want to see their chidlren that much, they mostly want to screw you around because they know you DON”T want the children with you. But having to have a lawyer means money and meeting time etc, and those are the two things they want for their penis activities. So Lawyer up on the children!
Also, for the same reason, if you HAVE to let him see the children, then follow the rules. The chances are that after two or three weeks of having to look after toddlers, he won’t want to do it anymore. They are narcissists and parenting really doesn’t cater to that. Once again, these children will take too much time from his busy penis life. The thing to watch for, however, is that he will actually not look after them, but give them to his mother just so you don’t get them. Then you need a P.I. to track his dumping them off and give it to the lawyer.
I understand the terrible panic about the children, but often it works itself out okay because these guys are terribly inconvenienced by the needs of children, and ultimately it doesn’t suit them and even though they want to upset you, they don’t want to upset their penis most of all.
just another perspective,
Diane.Dear Anne,
All the other sisters have already given you the real scoop, but I feel the need to chime in just to add my voice to the rest. Take care of yourself. Ignore him and give yourself as much space as possible. Dont be afraid to give your self enough time and space to discover that quite possibly you dont even want the SOB back! He is a textbook case, which means alot of second guessing and heartache on your side, in the event that you are also a textbook case, empathetic, introspective, willing to take responsibility for “your side” of the problems. Oh god, if only we WERE bitches or a little bit selfish, we would have all been saved so much pain! My wish for you is that you get a little selfish, and become the bitch that he will inevitably accuse you of being. Ugh. Hang in there sister–take care of yourself.
~BonnieAnne,
This is what my attorney said- you have to give him access but do not do it in a way that you don’t feel is safe for your kids. And don’t give up anything that you want to ask for in custody. If you don’t want him to have overnights, don’t let him have overnights now, for example. I wanted supervised, so I or someone I trusted supervised all visits (I didn’t get it initially because he was pretending to be in recovery but I have a good chance of getting it now that I have shown that he was lying).Toddlers do need more time with primary caregiver and I think you could easily make a case for no overnights.
Until we had interim orders in place, I met my STBX in public places only for visitation.
With interim orders, I was able to get injunctions- no computer, no phone, no strangers, no overnights, compulsory therapy for him, he had to meet with my son’s therapist, I got to inspect his apartment before my son could visit and I asked what he would do with his porn, sex toys,etc. I checked TV for parental controls, cable channels, etc. He had to have a bedroom exclusively for my son before he could visit (I hate to think what that room is used for with all his orgies). He see my son 2 hours 2 nights per week and every other Sat for 5 hours. So much less than 24 hours per week. And that’s the court order.
Right now there are no court orders in place. He or you could theoretically could keep the children totally away from the other parent and there is nothing you could do until temporary orders are put in place.
I think you are being very generous with 24 hours every weekend. You want to think about being able to have a life and not being held hostage by visitation. You want to be able to go somewhere with your kids for a weekend without having to negotiate with him.
Definitely see an attorney ASAP. Hopefully one that is familiar with high conflict divorce or issues with addicts.
I’ll add that my STBX has not let up on visitation. I think there are a couple possible explanations. One is that he is using son to get back at me. Everything with him is a power struggle and he doesn’t care who gets hurt so long as he doesn’t “lose”. So he keeps up visitation.
He has not let being around son interfere with his addiction. He has incredibly bad boundaries and he was downloading/looking at porn while supervising my child, had no problem about getting ready for orgies (including shaving pubic hair) in front of my son, contacted prostitutes while chaperoning Boy Scouts. So my son really isn’t in the way. In fact, son was often cover for him. He would do things with my son but really he was on his computer or phone. Now he only sees my son for dinner and breakfast. No weekend nights, so it doesn’t interfere with his orgies.
I think another reason that he won’t leave us alone is that my son has the same name as he does and he feels possessive about that. I think it’s all about his narcissism. He likes to show my son off and brag about him (much to my son’s displeasure- my son is shy). When they were doing the chess merit badge at Boy Scouts, he was bragging about how well my son plays chess and saying how everyone was afraid to play him. My son refused to go to the meeting, even though he loves chess.
I see my son taking my place now as the gaslightee. Dad is playing that game, trying to tell my son how nothing is wrong with him and that something must be wrong with my son because he is having anxiety around dad. He buys him stuff almost every visitation. My son asked him to stop because he feels manipulated, and dad told him that he shouldn’t feel that way because dad is just trying to be nice. So I think my son has in some ways become a surrogate for me, and as we all know, they need to be fooling someone.
So the point is, the parent-child relationship might be very simple- the kids are a lot of work and in the way- or it may be more complex if he is getting narcissistic supply from them or has some other need fulfilled by them (which of course has very little to do with being a good parent). I won’t go into whether or not they can be good parents while in denial about their addiction.
Everyone says that bc he is a narcissist that he won’t want the kids around, but I fear he will keep fighting for as much time as possible just to spite me.
I just found out he invited a 19 yr old girl who he had “befriended” to our home six months ago to “watch a movie” w him. Apparently, he said he was single and never wore his wedding ring. The plans reportedly fell through (not sure I even believe that), but the likelihood that this was the first and only time that something like this happened? Not possible. Effing disgusting. He’s 41 by the way.Oh honey,
that’s just awful stuff.
Yech!!!
It might be a good time to ask yourself what is your limit?
I hope you’re going to be all right and find your way to a new and better life wihtout his awful stuff.
D.xoAnne,
That is a very realistic fear with some of these guys (mine included). Kids are great narcissistic supply and getting the better of you is a great ego boost, too. I have one friend with a narc surgeon ex-husband who went bonkers during a mid-life crisis (piercings, tattoos, sex with god-knows-who- he got rolled in a hotel once by either a drug or sex deal gone wrong) and has turned her only child against her. She hasn’t seen or talked to her son in years now.You know your SA best, so trust your gut on how you think he will react.
Ugh, disgusting story, too. My dad used to have his girlfriends over all the time- same kind of age spread. I don’t now how my mom survived letting us go visit him. It feels so humiliating when you learn this stuff. Just keep telling yourself that he is seriously fucked up- it has nothing to do with you.
Dear Anne,
You are right to be concerned. He is a real narc and they love to win. You better get an attorney. I think you need one so you understand your rights. Your H is a bad case and I bet you don’t know the half of it? If your children are that little and you are home with them, you stand a good chance of being given primary custody, I would think (Daisy is that right). Do you want to be with a man who invites teenagers over to “watch movies?” I’m not even going to ask how you found that out.If he disclosed that, don’t bet that you have the entire story. Hang in there Anne and don’t go home….stay where you are safe. Karen xx
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