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For those of you who have stayed together successfully (or are still a work in progress), how do you decide when it’s the right time for couples therapy? When I went to my husband’s therapist with him a couple of months ago for my “q & a” session, the therapist recommended therapy with a separate couples’ therapist at some point. When I asked him when we should start, he said well the real answer to that question is to go when we know what the goal is, whether that’s to try to stay together, or whether it’s how to split in a way that’s in the best interest of the kids.
So, my SA is almost 4 months into sobriety/recovery, and I still feel like I’m in limbo. My “fantasy/wish” would be to stay together, but I feel like I won’t realistically know what Iwant until I see more recovery (esp. with having 2 BIG d-days). In the meantime, our relationship is in no man’s land. I’m on a constant roller coaster. I’m bouncing between compassion/pity/love/bitterness/lonliness/hope/relief/fear. This all seems toxic to a goal of staying together. But I don’t know…do we start couples’ therapy now?? I just feel like I need to have the bitterness purged out of me before I can really be at a good place for that, but I don’t know how to get rid of all of this bitterness. My individual therapy doesn’t seem to be helping that…not sure if it should or not, but I wish something would get rid of this ugliness in me that makes me lash out and sound like a whining victim. My SA says he doesn’t know what to do to help–and then I feel exhausted at the thought of explaining to him “how to be.” When you have a history of SA that’s gone back years and years, starting slowly and then progressing, it’s hard to know where to lay blame with our problems—very confusing, since I can’t see the forest for the trees. Any thoughts?ZG,
I’m glad you asked this question because I’m wondering the same thing. We are further along in recovery than you (10 months with two d-days that I know of) but I still don’t feel like I would benefit from couples therapy yet as I’m still very bitter. We get along fine day to day, and in the evenings. Even on the weekends, we work well together and have alot in common. But I still have a BIG issue with trust and I can’t get the thoughts of what he has done out of my head. We are still in separate rooms and I’m content with that right now. I’m in no hurry to get back into bed with him and I feel a bit guilty about it, though I know I shouldn’t. I guess I will go with my gut and get couples therapy when I feel like the time is right, not him. Who knows when that will be and if he slips between now and then it will be pushed out even further if not at all. Not sure I can handle another d-day. That might be the last straw. I hope that never happens, because I really would like to reach the point of couples therapy and have that hope for the future.CB
Hi Zumbagirl and cbslife,
I think you have to go with your gut, that’s really good advice. I didn’t even think about it until I had made a decision about whether or not I wanted to stay married to him ( about 10 months after the second d-day). And then, it took another four or five months of working on things between us before I was ready to see a couples therapist. The important issues for me were:
1) I had to believe that he was really in recovery
2) His defensiveness had to be improved, so that we could make progress with communication and therapy ( his work, and comes with recovery)
3) My anger had to be manageable, so that we could make progress with communication and therapy. ( my work and comes with recovery)We didn’t restart a sexual relationship until a year and a half into his real recovery ( a couple of weeks ago) after a lot of intimacy work, I wasn’t ready before then, based on the status of our relationship. And I really didn’t feel guilty about it, I felt like I was doing the right thing for me.
there aren’t any right or wrongs, go with your gut, like cbsife said and you’ll be okay. And if the therapist doesn’t feel right..don’t go back, find someone else.
MarieHi Zum,
I don’t know if I should respond or not because mine didn’t even achieve sobriety, let alone recovery, however, I always have an opinion to share. These are just my thoughts. I think if it were me, I’d want to be further along in my recovery and he probably should be further along too. The feelings you describe are all the feelings we have living with a SA. So getting those in check and knowing more of what you want may help before the couples therapy. Sometimes starting it to soon can make the complex even more complex. I’m happy to hear your husband is 4 months sober and into recovery. As you can tell by our sharing, that is quite good and he sounds like he’s working at it. There are no right and wrongs and if you both feel ready now then great. You just sound a bit tentative and maybe waiting would help. How many children do you have and how old are they? Wishing you the best Zumbagirl!
Napxxoocb: I can so relate to what you wrote. I too know that I can’t handle another d-day. I like what you and Marie said about “going with your gut.” Sometimes I get caught up in whether there’s a right or wrong timeline.
Marie, as always you have great practical (and from experience!) advice. Marie, thanks also for sharing your personal experience on the timing of your sexual relationship. It’s comforting to hear where someone else is with that, and it also reaffirms the idea of going with you gut.
NAP, I definitely do feel a bit tentative. You hit the nail on the head when you wrote “sometimes starting it too soon can make the complex even more complex!!”
We have 2 kids: our son is 17 and will be a highschool senior, and our daugther is 14 and will be a freshman. Two kids in highschool…how can that be when I’m only 29?? (LOLOL!)ZG,
Timely post. My counselor and I discussed this yesterday. I asked her to do “marraige counseling” when I first started with her, before I knew about his addictions, over a year ago and she told me then that each has to do their own work first. I didn’t understand that then and wanted 12 sessions to fix my husband and get on with life. Now, I get it.
I vascillate with your list of emotions hourly. By all the posts here, it seems we all do and that it is a “normal” reaction to what we are experiencing. Even though there is that ambivilence, I have moved through some stages since my first porn D-Day last July. I have had other D-Days learning that he has multiple addictions, secret spending being a big one.
My H has been counseling since last July, individual and group. that’s good but he is not in recovery nor has he even admitted that he has addictions. He says he has not watched porn since then but that is is super shame behavior, the one that I think he believes to be the “bad” one.
My H has told me more about his secret spending and why he hates women and lashes out at me. Then he tells me, when I asked about a more targeted therapy with addictions and triggers, etc., that an intensive is too expensive and he doesn’t know if he wants to work that hard. He said he just wants to be happy, do fun things, (back to same-o). He said he will always want things, (code for I am not stopping?). So after this, I have to hear what he is saying…denial, avoidance. He would rather get a divorce than face this? OK, so what am I fighting for, waiting on?
I asked yesterday if we should now start couples to get down to the hard stuff with mediator present. Because of this bullying and oppression, I have been afraid to ask anything for years. I didn’t know about our money, etc. With her knowing our deep stuff individaully, we can come togetherr and tell our truth, needs and feelings, and have help clarifying what our next step should be. She asked me what I needed to move on toward forgiveness and I said full disclosure, Dr. Weiss, lie detector style. I can’t regain safety and trust while knowing there are secrets. she understood that. But that just seeing a specialist isn’t a hoop to jump to say we are staying together. So, I don’t think you have to know what you intend to do before couples counsel I think it is the fact finding mission that helps you determine your course of action.
It’s hard to have this come to a head, none of us wanted divorces but his willingness to be transparent and go the distance is an answer. Together, with a counselor, you can cut through a lot of BS unproductive fighting and be exposed to one another. I am afraid to do it but it is time for us to to the hard work and face a decision.
More later,
debora
As usual, Deborah, very well said:) I agree that you don’t need to know whether you are staying in the relationship or divorcing to start couple’s counseling, and that very often that gets sorted out while during the time of therapy. For me personally, I did need to know. Your husband sounds like he is really trying to get the relationship back to his comfort zone….the way it used to be. I love your resolve to move forward to wherever that leads, no matter how messy or uncomfortable:)
Your friend,
MarieWhat an excellent post,
Again, I marvel at how similar our situations are. It seems that I can so relate to the feelings that all of you write about. I appreciate how eloquent you write. It helps me so much to be able to relate what I am feeling into words. Sometimes I just get all boxed in with feelings, like I just want to explode. Debora, when I read your post it was like a pressure release. It was like I could breath because your words described exactly how I was feeling inside.
Thank you all so much for taking the time to share with us what you are going through.
I have been hesitant to write lately because I feel like I am emotionally and physically drained. I wish that I could contribute more to you with words of advice and guidance. I soak all of your words up and cherish the support. I hope that I can give back soon when I gain some strength.
My dear friends and sisters on this site,
thank you.
Debora, My experience mirrors yours so close. Would love to talk with you in greater detail if you are able.
Hugs to all,
CindyHi all,
Debora your posts are so point on and I love reading them. Also, they are very heart felt because of the personal journey you unfold and like Cindy says, mirrors all our journeys. I would like to add, based on what I was told and experienced years ago, before I knew my h was a SA, about couples therapy. If there is any abuse in the relationship (physical or emotional), if the partner exhibits abusive tendendies, these will escalate due to couples therapy. I found this to be true in my case and therefore had to stop it. My h would become very threatening indirectly and objects/ walls would be targets. My h had and still does many defenses in place. He doesn’t even admit to himself the scope of his addiction. He’s still living the facade without me. When these men enter couples therapy, when they hear the reality of themselves and how it is affecting us and the marriage, rage builds inside. You don’t always see it, however, at some point they release it and its dangerous. I know my h sounds extreme and probably is at the far end of the contimuim, however, sex addition rage is a real thing. Many abusive men can’t handle couples therapy due to this. It also puts the spouse at risk. My husband was asked a simple question once by a therapist (15 years ago, 5 min into the couples therapy) he jumped up, screamed, pounded her door jam with his fist, broke it in two, and left. It was a example of his intense rage. The therapist could not talk for 15 mins she was so upset. I was in shock too. I just want to put this out there for the sisters whos h display rage, aggressive behavior, and violence.
love, nap xxooAdditionally, my counselor spoke about coming to the joint sessions with the anger, bitterness and other polarizing emotions under control. Zg, I am where you are with the bad emotions and the uncertainty of the future. This is not an issue that is swept under the rug with a casual effort toward recovery or an apology or a gift or a trip. So don’t be too hard on yourself here. Your life is in suspended animation. We are all waiting to exhale. Using the joint time to sling crap back and forth is also a waste. I know I have spent most of my reactionary anger and now am rationally discussing my deep feelings about all aspects of the “marraige” and how I see both of us as individuals.
My counselor told me that she felt my H has not been able to tell himself or her or the group all the truth yet. That during group he will “pose” and most often the guys will call him on it but sometimes they let it slide. She didn’t say what things he postures about. She brought that up to say that I have chosen to tell my ugly personal history, feelings and my role in our problems. He hasn’t fully yet. That will be part of the face-off work we do.
Also, as Marie stated, her H had to lay down his defensiveness and she, her anger, in order to dig into the source of the problems and to decide soul to soul, and with their long history and their family and life at stake, whether or not each would choose to tell the truth and be willing to rebuild the foundation.
I am also waiting for the joint sessions to give my bottom lines. I told my H last week that I did not want to be having this conversation in ten years and he got a little huffy and said he didn’t like to be given ultimatums. So, you see, I haven’t been able to say, “If you don’t go to an intensive and get with the recovery program, I will leave within 6 months.” He does not want to be told what to do or what I will do – a throwback to Mommy. I also know that I have to be very sure about what I want and make the decisions about how to get that inside myself. I must have a contingency plan and be committed to it in the event that we cannot reconcile.
I don’t want him to do it because he got caught or to “save” the marraige. That attitude will never satisfy my need for a grown-up love. And he has gotten puffed up and said, “I’m glad this all happened, I don’t want the marraige like it was before either.” To which I respond in my head – WTF, you stupid asshole, why didn’t you just start acting like a responsible man and work with me everytime I asked all those years and not act out in such appalling ways and leave us with all this crap to live with and deal with!! That goes back to some previous posts about other men who have said they wanted to get caught so it would stop. That’s PD to me and even if it all stops, do I want to live with someone so mentally unstable? I told her of some snooping I did and she said, ” So what if you find he had an affair? Would you leave then?” Her point is that I have already pushed back the line of what I would tolerate many times. I have to tell myself the truth of why I do that?
So we are in this drama and we can stay in the crazy cycle or take steps to wholeness. Marie mentioned that at her intensive Dr. Weiss asked her to make a contigency plan and that if she were to stay to know why exactly she would stay. we have to tell ourselves the truth about our reasons. Most stay for security/money, health, children.
Marie, would you share about that exercise at the intensive?
Love and peace in all our hearts,
Debora
Hi Deb,
The contingency plan was for if I did NOT stay in the relationship, and I had to write that out and he asked that it be very detailed.
In my first session alone with Dr. Weiss, he asked me why I was working on this relationship, what were my reasons for staying. I said that first I needed to explain that I loved my husband, but that I find it pretty easy to love anyone that I bring into my life and inner circle…that I understood that I would always love him, but not necessarily in a day to day, depend on him, want him in my life kind of way…that I could love him as part of my past. And then I told him that what was more important to me was that I actually liked my husband again, and respected him since he has been in recovery and that he has changed and I would like to continue to have a life with him if we reach a point where we can both get what we need in the relationship. Then he asked me what I would do if my husband chose not to do this intimacy work and I said that I just couldn’t stay married to him anymore, I need more. That’s the point where he smiled and said, “Excellent, he needs to believe that. And he won’t value you unless you value yourself. If you feel like you aren’t worthy of a real relationship, that’s how he will treat you.” He then went on to say there are lots of reasons women choose to stay with men who either aren’t sober or are sober but not in recovery, and that they were all legitimate..as long as the woman understood exactly what those reasons were and was willing to accept the consequences. A big frustration for him is women who are staying for financial security who won’t admit that is the reason. He encourages the women he sees to be brutally honest with themselves about what their reasons are for continuing to tolerate and be part of a relationship that isn’t healthy for them. And he makes a point of telling those women that if they think they can handle it now…..their lives will get much worse if their spouse isn’t sober and in recovery, because addictions always do.
MarieHi all,
Another helpful tool is to look at the cost of staying in the relationship verses the cost of not being in the relationship. This is not financial cost. When I made my list the cost of staying was much greater. I was losing myself just trying to hang on to something that wasn’t even there. In a way, I had to come to realize I was living the facade along with him. And I was paying a heavy price.On a roll here:)
ZG says – My SA says he doesn’t know what to do to help–and then I feel exhausted at the thought of explaining to him “how to be.” When you have a history of SA that’s gone back years and years, starting slowly and then progressing, it’s hard to know where to lay blame with our problems—very confusing, since I can’t see the forest for the trees. Any thoughts?
My H says this all the time. Sometimes to stop my general despair and depression about what has happened that cannot be undone, (he’s trying to sincerely ask what he can do to help my pain) and sometimes to deflect off of it like – you can’t cry over spilled milk (being a little sarcastic here).
He many times has explained to me that he doesn’t know what I’m talking about “intimacy” because he never had it. I believe him. He is broken there and I’m not sure if he can learn “how to be”. I’m not sure I can go through the hard work it will take him to practice intimacy. This is very hard for me to say. After someone has neglected you and abused you for so long…all of a sudden now you are supposed to let him practice on you? He is so awkward that it is repulsive to me. I feel like I’m at a 7th grade dance. And the thought of now working on a mature sexual relationship makes me nauseous, so much pain and humliation for me. Entering into that feels like more abuse than anything else. My H is so afraid of intimate connection that he nearly passes out from fear, (gets this desperate wild-eyes look) and sweats the fear smell and bugs out or lashes out at me. So I will have to be a guinea pig and nurture him and console and forgive him. I did that for 25 years and it didn’t work. And now to do it with the D-Day stuff is like insult to injury.
We also get caught up in the 25 year buildup and all the problems in the marraige that he wants to use as an excuse for doing what he’s done. I’m not playing that game anymore. Sounds like Dr. Weiss won’t either. My counselor won’t let that happen either. In several honest moments, he has said to me, “We are just different kinds of people.” We may have to leave it at that and both move on. He has said he never wanted to face this thing in him. He said it’s easier to be rejected for not doing anything than to try and be rejected because then it is your real self that’s rejected. There it is. He didn’t do things on purpose to protect himself from rejection. Then he blamed me (projected) and punished me. He admits this and his crazy thinking. I do not want to hurt him by asking him to jump through this recovery plan to find I cannot get over it all and it will be his totally revealing himself and I reject him. That is one of the big truths I will say at joint session. Either of us might back out at that moment.
Marie thanks for sharing that excerpt. I think I will work on writing down my plan.
NAP, Wow! Thankyou for bringing that to our attention. There are a lot of statistics that verify that violence accelerates at the time of separation. I can see that the head to head with counselor/witness would also be a big threat to them. This is why my counselor strongly suggested separating while we did this leg of the journey. I have many places to go for safety if it gets too hot but I am not leaving my home unless we get a divorce.
Debora
Right NAP – and that is a tough thing to face in ourselves. That kind of goes along with the Betryal Bond test. Not being able to leave a relationship that is destroying you.
Girding my loins here, Haha,
Debora
Hi Debora,
Great discussion and forum. So insightful. In answer to the question you posed in your last post, first paragraph: As my therapist tells me, and its taken me a while to appreciate, is: all we have it today. What is happening today. Am I doing today what I need to do to take good care of myself and am I making my life a richful one or am I spending it torturing myself over a lost relationship which needed to be lost years ago, or laying around feeling sorry for myself. Where to place blame and when is yesterday. All we have is today, Today, are we making good and healthy choices for ourselves, are we doing things we enjoy, are we spending time with love ones that are true? All we really have is today.
Make the most of your today,
love napxxooHi guys,
I could really identify with zumbagirl saying how exhausting it is to explain things and “try to tell him how to be”, too. My relationship didn’t start to become the one I wanted until I said…no more. You’re an intelligent guy, I’ve already told you what feels like love to me, you can choose to do it or not do it. I let him have the responsibility that he should have always had and i stopped “driving” the relationship with my fairly constant explaining and asking and wanting. It threw him for a loop at first, he said I was “passive, stepped too far back, he didn’t know what to do” etc. Gradually, he has/is assuming the responsibility in the relationship that he always should have had and it’s been a big improvement. I had just realized at that point that even if the constant explaining and being on top of things worked ( and it didn’t and never would have), that I would still end up with a relationship that I didn’t want. And it is SO exhausting to live that way!
When I was at heart2 heart, one of the women counselors said she once had a husband married 20 some years tell her that he “didn’t know what felt like love to his wife.” She said she asked him to write down 10 things that would feel loving to her and he said he couldn’t do that, wouldn’t know what to write. She challenged him to a lie detector test and he had no problem coming up with many more than 10. She said “these guys know”, and when they pretend they don’t, it’s manipulative or withholding or both.
MarieHi Marie,
Really liked what you wrote. It is their responsibility. I would say most times they know what to do but they do withhold or manipulate or become passive aggressive or it becomes intermittent crumb throwing. Which I gobbled up like the starving wife I was.These men are either going to step up to the plate or they are not. Even when they step up, its not an easy life and there are struggles I’m sure, however, the relationship moves in the right direction. For the men who don’t step up (mine), nothing changes in the relationship. Just more of the same. We can stay and grow as an individual, but the marriage doesn’t and all the craziness continues or repeats itself over and over again.
napWow, NAP…”All we really have is today.” Something so simple, yet so profound. I think I’m going to write that down on about 20 post it notes and stick them all over the place. It might annoy my family, but maybe they’ll remember it too. 🙂
Marie, I found your last post fascinating…about the lie detector test, and the fact that “these guys know.” Certainly the most challenging part for me of my SA’s recovery (and I guess my own), is giving back responsibility to my husband. Here’s another area where it sounds like I need to make him responsible. It’s so scary because who knows if he’ll take the ball and run with it. At the same time, it’s very freeing.
This has been such a great forum and dialogue. Thank you so much everyone for sharing!! ZGWell, I certainly started it for my own sanity, but it definitely seemed to hit a chord! (Just that alone is always a help…again the feeling of not being the only one!)
love, ZGHi All,
Deborah you made the statement that your h said “he did not want to work that hard”. And this struck a note with me. I have for years wanted this designation for my work, i want to manage/own a business, but do not care much for what the designation is in; however i must have this to own the business. But was saying last week that I do not want to work that hard for the designation, in other words i only want it if its easy to get. In other words your h does not want to put forth the effort that is required, especaiily if hard work. He just really does not want this.Also how everyone is talking about the who do you want me to be or they don;t know who they are. My h did this all the time. I always told him he is the one that needs to decide that. And then day to day he flopped around and did nothing. its impossible to have an adult relationship with a man who acts like a kid, and has no intention of finding out who they are.
And as for living each day and we only have today. Its a real harsh reality. If we spend our lives nurturing and helping these SA’s our so called loves of ourlives…where does that leave us. When is it our time? What we describe on here paints a pretty poor picture of what life with these SA’s is like. i know everyone may need help in their lives…but i don’t think a purposful addiction is that cause? I can see loving and supporting a kid through this, i can see loving and supporting an h through re-hab for an accident or rehab for SA with purpose and good intention. But I hate to see many of us wasting and waiting for what could be with our h’s.
I am not sad nor have i ever regretted my decision. Everyday i realize that this is what had to be. I think that in my situation the break is the best thing as he was too dependent on me to even help him decide who he was?!?! To go to work, to tell him when to clean the house….This is not our battle or our job as a spouse.
I you have one who is willing to man up and do this on his own..then more power to you. But for the rest of us…there is a time when we have to do what is best for us. To beable to live today for today…not with hopes and dreams of the future.
Love to all,
Flora
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