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in one of my almost sleepless nights, i believe i’m come to some clarity. so much of therapy and recovery focuses upon the compulsive behaviour. as we all know, there is more to it than just fucking other women, or porn, or masturbation… just stopping that behaviour is NOT recovery.
here is how i see how they hurt us. i think there are three parts.
1. the sexual behaviour
2. the collateral emotional and behavioural damages which either caused #1 or is caused by it
3. the inability to accept consequences#1 is obvious
#2 includes the rages, the lying, the stealing, procrastination, neglect, bullying, blameshifiting….. etc. etc.
#3 is the scariest of all. it is the ultimate in gas lightingit means that the SA will believe it is all the partners fault. it means that claire’s H will whistle cheerfully while he faces jail time for child porn. it means the SA will act like he’s the best guy. it means they won’t give us the space we need. that when we are hurt, it is OUR fault
#3 is the worst of all. it is the crazy making factor. it is the behaviour, more than anything that scares me. that makes me believe #1 and 2 will keep happening over and over an over… if not now, in a month in a year in 5 years in 10 years…
i hate #3.
until the therapeutic model treats #2 and #3 as actually MORE important than #1, these guys will never fully heal. and i’m not sure they are capable anyway…
I think in general the therapeutic models do talk about #2 and #3. That’s why partners write a cost letter. But it’s a bunch of SA’s talking to a bunch of SA’s all of whom I think are really incapable of getting it. It be like schizophrenic treating schizophrenics- “I hear the aliens, too!”
I totally get what you are saying, Lisa. The emotional abuse and lack of conscience are as problematic as the sexual behavior. I reached a point where I believe most of them and maybe all of them can only maybe control the sexual behavior. I really don’t think they can grow a conscience which makes 2 and 3 and even 1 problematic.
The only thing that makes 1 doable at all is if you spell out specific behaviors that they can understand (and even then they try to find every loophole in the world). I don’t know how you do it with thoughts and actions, especially the way they manipulate and lie.
i guess my point is i think that 2 and especially 3 are MORE important than 1. i’ve looked through the carnes workbook. very little focuses upon 2 and hardly any or none on 3.
the very notion of ‘powerlessness’ makes #3 near to impossible. unless you are highly enlightened being that fully understands metaphor and spirituality (i don’t know any SAs that are), that is too easily an excuse.
there has often been a question on this forum, what is the difference between a cheater and an SA. i think it’s the #3 that separates them.
This ties in with what I have been thinking about today. Even if the acting out stops…how do you influence the basic personality? I stopped by my husbands office this morning. I have not been there since D-Day in January and his retirement from the Army about three weeks later. He made himself a “wall of me” where he put many Army momentos, pictures of himself, his bronze star and other achievement awards, coins etc. Out of the hundred or so items on his credenza, wall, and desk there was NOT ONE picture of family, not even of his children. That was very telling about what he considers important…himself obviously. So how do you imfluence that complete narcissism and me me me attitude which I think is a common attribute for SAs?? His excuse BTW…not enough time (but was able to perfectly align everything else including his 100 or so coins lol).
colleen, that’s exactly it, sister. you can’t influence the basic personality. maybe if they would take responsibility…
here is my 3 step program
step 1 – you are responsible for your actions.
step 2 – you have the power to behave differently.
step 3 – repair the damage done to others and yourself by your actionscan you imagine if the SA process started with this step 1?
teri, by the way, i like your schizophrenic analogy.
Lisa my H acts out because he thinks he deserves it because I have not been a good wife. I don’t know if this is playbook or if mine is unique. He does not admit anymore to having a problem (he did in 2009). It is more like his way of saying fuck you to me. That should be easier for me to handle.
Teri you are funny.
Lisa this is good information for someone like me whose husband hasn’t gone to any 12 step program.
SOT, blaming the partner is definitely in the playbook
girlfriend, you are 4 years in. sound like he isn’t making any changes. time for you to make them dear sister.
Just curious because I am a newbie but is there any statistics or anything that relates to when an SA hits rock bottom and is willing to get help finally? I keep on thinking about some of the things my husband said when he got caught…I am too old, nobody wanted me blah blah blah so maybe when they are older and more out of shape they decide to come clean and try to be sober because there is less action unless he is willing pay for it?? Just curious.
colleen, i don’t know about statistics, but i believe the ones that get help are the ones who KNOW their partners won’t put up with any shit. the ones that believe their partners will leave.
7 years Lisa. 2006 1st time he was going to be a sugar daddy to a crack whore. He was remorseful for 4 months then I should get over it.
I don’t know what I have been thinking just trying to survive I guess.
Colleen and Lisa I have been tossing around the issue of unless they know you will leave. Each time I have tried he does a 180. Is it really enough why does it have to reach that point? Shouldn’t it be a basic instinct not to cheat lie to anyone much less someone that your supposed to love?
It is so much work to make sure they are actually following through with the promises made when you are about to leave. My experience is 5 minutes is the duration. Too much work.
Colleen They do pay for it and there pride is not hurt a bit.
SOT – your SA is not unique, he’s like all these other stupid fuckers. Yes, maybe they all have their nuances that give their stories something unique – hey my h. found one of his whores dead in her mini-van from a drug od! fun stuff! – but at the end of the day, it’s about their complete narcissim and their emotional abuse. That denial that he doesn’t have a problem? That is complete and utter abuse – he is trying to manipulate your reality by denying his reality. And you cannot “cure” someone who doesn’t admit to a problem. And you know what? Maybe he isn’t an SA (doubtful) so then the question is, can you accept his behavior and how he treats you & your children?
Do not berate yourself for what you have done thus far – you are in a very difficult & traumatic situation, as so many of us are or have been. When you know better, you do better.
Christine
SOT I would be laughing in his face if he tried blaming me!! It amazes me how alike all these sick SA are!!!!
SOT so if he doesn’t have a problem, and he isn’t a SA, that just leaves choice – he is freely choosing to cheat on his spouse? All choices have consequences. Good choices have good outcomes, poor choices have poor outcomes. Time to present him with the consequences of his choices methinks.
I get what you are saying, Lisa, and I like your new 3 step program. I doubt men are going to flock to it like the Carnes program, though. Being a bad guy vs. being a victim of an addiction, that flies in the face of everything my SJ believes about himself, anyway. Narcs can’t admit fault. Those that aren’t narcs might sign up.
I agree that #3 is the key, and that is supposed to be when they are no longer in denial. I think the Carnes model feeds denial, because denial is what keeps men in line to pay up, either to them, or to the porn/sex industry and THEN to them. They don’t care about recovery at all.
Lisa, LOVE the way you are thinking lately. Wow. So clear, so insightful. Really great posts, thank you:)
SOT, what if you made a promise to yourself that you were going to get him out of the house for 6 months? And at the end of it, he would take a polygraph if he wanted to move back in and work on the marriage with you. You don’t have to go right from living with him and being a wife and sexual partner to divorce. There are plenty of baby steps along the way. Maybe think in terms of baby steps? Maybe the first baby step is no sex. And the second is separate bedrooms. And the third is him moving out for an agreed amount of time and doing his work.
I sound like I did it all correctly, whatever that is, I can assure you I didn’t. My husband left the house and stayed gone overnight one night last November because I was showing my anger at him really for the first time and I didn’t apologize and I didn’t let him come home, and we’ve been living separately ever since. It was really, really hard, but I did it. And if there is one thing I am proud of myself for, it’s that I did it. It went against every instinct I had, but with the strength I gained from this site and these sisters, I did it. If I had tried to say to him at the time, living with him and sleeping in the same bed, that I wanted a divorce, I couldn’t have done it. I was so scared and gaslighted that I couldn’t have done it,but I was able to keep him out of the house. I needed the space and the distance, and now, I’m going to do it, divorce him, because he hasn’t changed and the personality crap is too ingrained. Being separated from him has literally saved my life, and I know that sounds dramatic, but it’s the truth.
Maybe a baby step is the next time he (whatever, stays out all night, picks on your daughter, takes the cushions off the couch) , make that your baby step and ask him to move out for 2 weeks or a month or whatever and if he won’t, tell him you want a divorce now. Get him out. Get him out. Get him out. Whatever it takes, just Get. Him. Out. If I can do it, anybody can. And don’t worry about disrupting the kids, they will thank you for it , if not immediately, someday. I’m rooting for you SOT, and you will never get out of the swamp unless you start to put some distance between you, start with baby steps and keep going.
And SOT, no amount of money or financial security is worth what these guys do to us. I would go on food stamps before I let him move back in. I don’t have two teenagers, but I have one. I’d have both of us on food stamps if that’s what it took.SOT I mean this in the kindest possible way. Your H acts out because you allow him to. It is really that simple. Also, you have absolutely no reason to believe his fake promises every time he thinks you are leaving. You have to understand that he doesn’t care about you AND he is really enjoying this little power game where he is the cat and you are the mouse. Repeat after me. “That asshole does NOT have my best interests at heart, so I must NOT trust him no matter what he says or does.” Do you have a therapist? Hugs, Karen
Thank you Coutney and Karen. I really appreciate the help esp when you have your own issues. I know that it is not easy to listen to my stories because I am sure you feel them just like I do. I really need some peace 7 years is long enough.
So sorry Lisa. I really didnt mean to hi-jack your post. It really hit home with me because he doesnt take responsibility for any of his actions.
really insightful. I thought I was alone in the gas lighting thing! Apparently not! I agree with you about number three- being healed! There can be no healing if reality is denied. Good helpful post. Thanks
SOT, none of them take responsibility (none i know of anyway). he’s not special. that might be your first step. stop thinking he is special. start thinking that you are.
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