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I think it really depends how you view it. I see it differently than Karen and don’t think it’s that simple. He sounds predominantly like an abuser who is purposely deciding to do it as a form of power and control, using emotional and subtle/covert sexual abuse. So stepping out of the sex addiction frame and into a domestic violence context — a DV counsellor will tell SOT that nothing she does will be able to change the perpetrator’s abusive and controlling behavior, only he has the ability to stop it. Nor is she responsible for his abusive actions or choices — he solely is. So if his open cheating is an abuse tactic, it moves into victim blaming territory to say he does it because she allows it.
It is exactly that simple. This is going to go on as long as SOT allows it to. If she does not stop it…exactly who is going to??? Isn’t like some research paper is going to ride in and save the day. She has to find the help she needs to shut this guy down or this is going to go on and on and on. Abuse or not, the woman always has to change the situation because an abuser’s MO is to keep EVERYTHING exactly as it is. I know she cannot actually stop his actual cheating but the power lies within her to change her reaction to his cheating or to walk
away from it. It is futile for SOT to think he is going to change as he most certainly is NOT. I don’t think it victimizes her to point out the reality of the situation. This will change, when she changes it in some way. Until then, this will continue as it
has. By the way, I think ALL cheating is abuse and I think all SA’s are abusers of the tallest order.She will need to save herself. I never advocated the status quo. I made it clear she cannot change him.
DV counsellors are not research papers, they are the most valuable and effective support that women in abusive relationships can receive. They will help her save herself and counter the messages he gives her: that he does everything because of her. My disagreement was purely with reducing it to: he does it because she allows it, as it’s not that simple, and inadvertently places fault and blame on SOT, perpetuating his message. She is not at fault for any of his abuse. Not even 1%, even if she stays/endures it. He is choosing to do this and to employ these abuse tactics — he’s not doing it because he has her permission. He will do it to her whether she “allows” it or not. That is the reality of the situation, and which is why there is no guarantee the abuse stops once she leaves — many abusers increase their abuse AFTER the victim has left, because of losing power and control.
Agree, all cheating is abuse. All SA’s are abusers. I see a distinction between sex addicts whose behaviors are very abusive, yet driven centrally by their addiction or compulsion. And outright abusers, who do this shit intentionally with the main purpose to dominate, intimidate, and control — not compulsively or impulsively focused, but using the sexual behavior as a weapon in their arsenal. My experience has been, though, that the former can morph into the latter. All SA is domestic violence in my opinion — in many cases the abuse extends far beyond cheating. The reason I said move frames, though, is because I have noticed that general SA advice and DV advice don’t always align.
Lisa like your original post, simplifies it down to the nuts and bolts about these guys. I think we have done a good autopsy on these so called men. We have examine them from every
angle and find many similarities among them.I think we need to examine most importantly ourselves.
“We live what we tolerate”. If I stay with an abusive person, I’m likely to be abused and miserable. If I choose to stay with a cheater, I’m likely to be cheated on. If I choose not to accept toxicity then my life won’t have chaos, doubt, fear, neglect, frustration, disrespect, loneliness and other negative consequences. We owe it to ourselves not to tolerate it. Not from anyone.
i agree completely nap.
for some reason i’ve been trying lately to understand better. i think it is because i have been re-traumatized lately by DWs actions, some that simply remind me of an earlier trauma and some behaviour that still has power over me.
i think understanding the significance of #3 from my first post is deflating the power of his present stance in our divorce.
if i see it as an injustice, i go to trauma and pain, and it debilitates me. if i see it as a shortcoming on his part, it is easier for me to blow it off a bit.
it is this (his inability to accept the consequences of his actions) that is hurtful to me and is manifesting itself in many ways. it is difficult, because i’m still living with him, and will for another couple of months. it may seem crazy, but i’m looking at the long haul – this has many advantages, the house isn’t ready, but it is going to be great, it is easier on my son. i’ve made it a year and a half, i can do a few more months, i’m trying to pace myself, do lots of self care, and also accept the ways in which i am less of myself for the moment because of the stress…
i’m still not at the point where i can see his actions clearly and not be hurt by them. i have reached that point (mostly) with my family, but i still have a long way to go with DW.
i also agree with ‘we live what we tolerate’. in addition to not tolerating abuse, i also want to learn to truly not let it affect me, even as i walk away.
i like to see myself as a fair person. and unfairness in others is difficult for me. i’m just as hard on myself as i am on others. i have high standards. i’m learning to be more forgiving of myself, more flexible, less black and white. this is beginning to take the sting out of disappointments – in myself and others.
it is hard to accept that some people simply aren’t capable of loving behaviour. but i’m beginning to.
thanks for your words nap. xoxo
“if i see it as an injustice, i go to trauma and pain, and it debilitates me. if i see it as a shortcoming on his part, it is easier for me to blow it off a bit.”
Lisa, I’ve never thought of it that way before, and this is such an important concept for me. Thank you:)
I think the two should be combined into one tattoo/pillow quote. “We live what we tolerate? Fuck That!”
Lisa, I think breaking down as you have is really good because I think it helps sort out that problem so many have with “it seems like he’s not acting out, so why am I still having problems”. That’s a complicated issue in itself, but I think a big part of the problem is that often 2 and 3 are still going on even if 1 isn’t. And until 2 and 3 are fixed, the SA isn’t fixed (meaning they aren’t really in kind of real recovery).
Of course, I don’t think recovery applies to most of these men in that I don’t think they are capable of 2 and 3 even if they spend ALL their time on that. I really don’t. Maybe a few of them- but not the majority of them that we hear about here at SOS. I just don’t see if happening with guys who have done what they have done for years and years. I do not believe they will suddenly magically with the help of a CSAT and a group of fellow SA’s grow a conscience.
I also just want to add that every time I see this topic, the words “the three ways” pops out at me, which actually makes me smile bc of the irony.
And we also live with what we tolerate and what the court says we have to (unfortunately).
teri –
And we also live with what we tolerate and what the court says we have to (unfortunately).
i felt a big big sigh when i read that. so sad. i.e. it doesn’t matter in BC how much $ he spent on sex outside of the marriage, the courts won’t mandate me getting it back.
i got it back anyway, through support from the therapist. well i got the amount he SAID it was, so i’m guessing about half. and all the money we spent on therapy? i won’t get that back. thousands…
and as you know, the courts don’t give a shit about his activities as far as custody goes. that is the hardest pill to swallow. i’m fighting with DW right now because he wants to go to less therapy than we agreed upon, because it is expensive (?) i having to tell him if he doesn’t see a therapist i agree to (like it says in our separation agreement), i will get the courts to ORDER that he sees the therapist. dumbass.
so yes, the courts are asking us to tolerate a lot. a lot. it could be worse, i guess. but it sure could be a lot better.
and we have to be so fucking STRONG to stand up for what we can get, because we have to resist all the screwed up attitudes in our society about sex and the rights of women. ugh.
it isn’t as simple as not tolerating the mistreatment, we actually have to dig deep, rise up and resist. in order to get this shit our of our lives, we have to push back harder than you would think.
maybe with a normal person it is a simple as saying ‘i won’t tolerate that’ but with this kind of abuse it is more like maybe ‘we live what we fight for….’
It’s very unfair and unfortunate the skrew job we get by the courts. I know I went through it and for being married to someone for 25 yrs really did not get my fair share, maybe the law thought I did but in reality not even close. But I did fight for everything I could get according to the law and I think most of us do/will. I think fighting is part of the not tolerating. We don’t accept their terms so we fight for what is right as best we can. We can’t passively sit by and say ‘oh well this is my life’. Anything worthwhile is worth fighting for and it could be anything from our dignity and self respect to the money they owe us.
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