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Sisters, I know this is probably an exercise in futility, but can anyone help me to understand how sex addicts are able to rationalize everything?
I gather that most of these men are intelligent, well-functioning people who hold down good jobs. My husband has 3 degrees and prides himself on his rational, logical mind (- “guffaw” from me). Unlike substance or gambling addicts, an SA’s addiction is completely hidden (even from us for a while) and they interact with people in a perfectly normal way. Sometimes, they even exhibit compassion – like my husband who lectures underprivileged students and helps to clean oily penguins.
So with all that, why can’t they see how much hurt they cause us? – the people whom they supposedly love (- and I believe that they do, in their own limited way). I know it’s an addiction, but in their moments of sobriety, why do they not see the reality of it and seek help? From the stories I’ve read, very few of these men have voluntarily disclosed information – we usually have to back them in a corner with reams and reams of evidence, before they admit to only a fraction of it.
I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a while and I found it easier to deal with psychotic patients – because although they also have a “different” view of reality, it’s their entire reality, not just the portions which suit them. By contrast, it seems that sex addicts can function perfectly normally in society, but can’t understand why looking obsessively at porn or having sex with hookers would upset us.
Am I just being naive and are they just conniving, manipulative people? I know the theory is that they have a stunted emotional growth, but as far back as I can remember, at the age of 5, I think I could tell when I did something which hurt someone else – and I learnt that that was wrong.
I know this is more of a rant than a question. I know I should just leave, and not look back, and not try to understand him. I guess my reason for wanting to know this is my desperate desire for some acknowledgement of the pain which he put me through. A simple, sincere “I’m sorry” is all that I’m looking for.
So Sisters, if you have any insights, please share them.
Well, I’ll try to be brief,
I just spend two and half hours with my SA, dealing with finances, summer plans, divorce etc. He also has three degrees and is exceptionally bright. He is compassionate in many aspects of his work, and I have seen his deep care — for everyone but me.He still doesn’t understand why I am divorcing him. I recalled our last meeting, over Christmas, when we were together with our two sons (21, 24) and he told them about his sex addiction. We had agreed that he would not disclose things I didn’t know, as I had no safety for that prepared and we didn’t want another person at this point. Of course, you can imagine what he did. 80% of what he said I knew nothing about. It was devastating, and he did it in front of our sons. It was my job was to support and monitor for their responses or trauma signs. So while I was dying inside I had to look after them–which left me a train wreck.
Recalling this, he was dismissive and I just kept my foot on the gas—challenging his arrogance, his refusal to consider that I was a human being in the room, his failure to keep his promise, being certain that he did not owe me anything, that he did not intend to change anything about his approach, and that my experience did not impact his at all.
Finally he “gave in”, and then I indicated that this “potential change point” will simply disappear now and revert back to his former position because he therapy model doesn’t call him to consider me as a real person. I am only there to facilitate his recovery and to keep the marriage together. And that’s why I have to end the marriage. Because there is no evidence that he is ever going to anything but continue to be selfish and cruel.
What’s important to me in this experience of this conversation is that he tried to shut down my telling of the experience, and he tried to have the last word. The arrogance is quite unbelievable. But I wouldn’t let him.
Of course he says that he always loved me and still loves me. And I said, no, you needed me as your cover and your scapegoat. If it was otherwise then, it would be otherwise now, and it’s not.
Thank you for letting me puke up my morning with you. I will press on.
love,
D.Laya,
Thanks for asking the question. i have no answer at all, but have the same questions and want to hear what others say. My ex is also supposedly highly intelligent. I am not sure that I would any longer say he is genuinely caring towards others. But I don’t get it either how they can do the things they do. The hurt it does to us is a big enough deal, but what about the exploitative industry they support, etc. etc. I can’t understand how amoral they are. Want to hear what everyone else says. And I, too, Layla, just wanted to hear “I’m sorry”. It did make it way easier to leave because he wasn’t sorry.
Polly
An except from In Sheep’s Clothing by George Simon, Jr…Conscience can be conceptualized as a self-imposed barrier to an unchecked pursuit of personal goals. It’s a person’s internal set of “brakes.” Aggressive personalities resist society’s exhortation to install these brakes…any conscience they do form is likely to be significantly impaired. This is the heart of conscience development: Internalization of a societal prohibition is the definite act of submission. Because all of the aggressive personalities detest and resist authority, they necessarily develop impaired consciences.
The conscience of covert-aggressives is uniquely impaired in several ways. By refraining from overt acts of hostility towards others, they manage to convince themselves and others they’re not the ruthless people they are. They may observe the letter of the law, but violate its spirit with ease. They may exhibit behavioral restraint when it’s in their best interest, but they resist truly submitting themselves to any higher authority or set of principles. Many people have asked me if I’m really sure that covert-aggressives are as calculating and conning as I describe them. “Maybe they just can’t help it,” they tell me or “they must do these things unconsciously.” …most covert-aggressives I’ve encountered have been primarily character disordered, striving primarily to conceal their true intentions and aggressive agendas from others. They may behave with civility and propriety when they’re closely scrutinized or vulnerable. But when they believe they’re immune from detection or retribution, it’s an entirely different story.
His book is excellent…I think all that meant was that these guys are creeps that live with a lot of self-entitlement…I personally believe they have ignored their God-given conscience so much, that each time they get less and less pricked by their wrong-doing. Yet sisters, I too marvel and am totally confused to be living with that person-his thought process is completely alien to me…my counselor said, you will never understand an addict because you weren’t one…another counselor said, “Put a wooden block out to keep in your site. Remember, the addict will say it is black, but you will argue it is wood-grained!!! and you will argue to no avail…he will not see the truth…I am as perplexed as you! Hugs, b. trayed
A note about the wood block being left out…my counselor said to leave it out to remind me of his messed up thinking. She told me to look at it to remind myself not to grovel, plead, and beg like a dog for him to see truth…each time I act like a dog…I wash my huge floor in the kitchen to train myself not to beg for a blind man to see! I washed my floor a few times and now I have stopped begging. I guess I have regained some of my dignity back. Ruff, ruff! LOL
Just my thoughts on high intelligence with these guys — Sociopaths are typically highly intelligent manipulative people. i.e. Manson, etc. While he is an exptreme example, a sociopath is a sociopath to varying degrees. Many SA’s have socipathic / narcissitic PD disorders, at minimum — their traits.
Hi Laya,
You have such interesting questions and thoughts, and you write so well. Rationalization is present and necessary in any type of addiction, it’s not specific to sex addiction. Having said that, I have come to the conclusion that we are not addicts and therefore, we are never going to understand. I spent so much time and energy trying to understand, and couldn’t get there. Intellectually understanding that it is part of the addiction and trying to reconcile that with the person you know and love are vastly different things. Several months into my husband’s recovery, he started talking about “when I had a sick brain, I used to think_______” and as his recovery progressed, even HE couldn’t even begin to explain how he used to be able to do those things, or think that way. And as his recovery progressed, genuine empathy and sadness for what he had caused and what he lost out on did occur. I don’t believe we have any hope of understanding it, we just have to accept that it won’t change and we won’t get the closure we need from them unless they are in recovery. Short of that, we have to find a way to get where we need to be without them. I wished I had all of you for that journey when I was doing it. I didn’t find this site until he was almost a year into recovery…but I am grateful for all of you now:)
Marie“So with all that, why can’t they see how much hurt they cause us? – the people whom they supposedly love?”
This is what I’ve surmised through what I’ve read and in reading much and learning about personality disorders.
Its very difficult to understand, but something inside their brain either isn’t there to begin with or, is so severely damaged that it might as well not be there.
They have no capacity to understand how any of this could or would hurt you– remorse or empathy And they truly have NO idea how this would have any adverse affect on you and/or why you are so upset. And believe me, they will make up a million reasons in their fekked up heads to rationalize why what they are doing is just hunky dory.
(((hugs)))
L
Hi all – just catching up on posts for the last 24-h. I can really relate to the talking, talking, talking, to an SA and they cannot comprehend what we are saying. They argue, tell different stories, dance around the subject, and in my experience, tells entirely an different story the next day.
The SA addicted brain is unable to process things the way the “normal” person does. I don’t try to win a point anymore – just file it away, and realize my husband’s mind is still f
up. It just makes me realize the total lack of insight that still goes on in his head.
I want to thank you all for your support, the past 2 days, when I was really having some down time. I know you think I don’t “get it” when it comes to Steve. I really do get it – just have been hooked into not being able to act on what I know intellectually. I am really hoping EMDR will help me get to be where I need to be. I have noticed some improvement- more than I thought- in that when I am out with Steve and he does something related to the addiction, it is beginning to run off like water off a duck’s back. I see that as some progress, because I don’t go into the panic attack mode and get that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Maybe there is hope for me yet.
I am going to complete the EMDR treatments with my present therapist, and then look for one who is not closely invested in our friendship and trying to save the marriage. Hugs.Sharron,
Have you ever considered, just dating? I am not saying sleeping or having sex… not at all… and even if there’s nothing there, (chemistry-wise) I think that the company and attention of someone who’s not psychodude, could help you detach from him and fill that head space with someone else and help you to give you some greater perspective?Its just a thought and certainly nothing you have to do… but might be worth considering? just my thoughts.
hugs,
L
PS: I for one, do not think that you don’t get it or are crazy… He is and he’s brought you down with him… that’s all… its very, very difficult.
Hi Laya,
I think your questions are so right on. These guys are really giant puzzles we spend endless hours trying to figure out. Probably the the best description for my XSAH i could ever find was when I googled sociopath. If you read the characteristics of a sociopath they have a lot of them. Very cunning, charming, actors of caring, no conscience, self serving. The only recommendation for being in a relationship with a sociopath is :RUN, RUN and RUN. Not all SA are sociopaths, but I do believe mine is.Oh Sisters, thank you for your thoughts and wisdoms.
Pam-C, Lexie, Sharron and NAP: You are all probably right. As much as I struggle to accept it, my husband does have quite a few sociopathic and narcissistic traits. And therefore, no matter how hard I try, I will probably never be able to understand the SA mind.
Diane: That’s exactly it. And I’m so sorry you had to go through that horrible experience. To me, it sounds like abuse. I love the way you were straight with him when he started with all the love stuff – I still fall for that, every time.
Marie: Thank you for your kind words and for sharing your husband’s thoughts. It’s comforting to know that if a sex addict really commits to recovery, he / she can overcome their distorted thought patterns. (My husband isn’t anywhere close to admission, let alone recovery as yet. But if one day he does choose to, I would like to meet him again and get to know him – sans addiction.)
B-trayed: In Sheep’s Clothing definitely sounds like something I should read. The covert-aggressive theory seems like it could help to explain things. And I love the wooden block reminder – I too often “beg for a blind man to see”.
Polly: You’re right, the lack of remorse is probably a blessing in disguise. If he had apologised, I would probably have seen it as a sign of hope / a heart, and tried to make things work.
Much love,
LayaHi Ladies,
In my opinion, almost all of them are unhealthy narcissists. Not every narcissist is an addict but most addicts are narcissists. I just downloaded samples of a few books on the subject. “Why Is It Always About You,” by Sandy Hotchkiss, looks pretty promising. “The Narcissist we recognize as unhealthy is someone who, no matter what age, has not yet fully developed emotionally or morally. This person lacks a realistic sense of Self and an internalized system of values – apart from unmitigated self-interest – that guides behavior. In place of an accurate assessment of personal strength, there is an exaggerated posture of importance unrelated to any real accomplishments. Instead of humility in the face of inevitable shortcoming, there is an overwhelming, and utterly intolerable, sense of shame, though well-disguised. There is also no ability to value, or often enough even to recognize, the separate existence or feelings of other people. The Narcissist may be intimidating, mesmerizing, even larger-than-life, but beneath the bombast or the charm is an emotional cripple with the moral development of a toddler.” Sound familiar? Has anyone read this book? Drat, the book by George Simon isn’t available for Kindle. I really like my Kindle, especially for reading “self-help” books. No one can really see what you are reading so they don’t ask any specific questions. I can switch between sex addiction and Shakespeare in under ten seconds. I’d highly recommend purchasing a Kindle. Living with a sex addict? Not so much.I read about the first half of the book and thought it was very good. I had to return it to the library. It is on my list of books to purchase some day. I thouhg it was a good one and yes it does sound familiar in regards to our SA’s.
Hi all,
I have not been able to check in since our meeting where I got to appear before you all in my sweaty pic tailed glory. (Still laughing about how things like that happen to me!)
Anyway, I have been busy helping my friend with her daughters wedding, which turned out so beautiful. It was sad for me to attend the wedding minus my H and watching the happy couple make the very vows that I made to him on my wedding day. It is hard for me not to have questions in my heart regarding the phrase “…. for better or worse…. as long as I shall live….” I know that I don’t have to tell you how empty my heart feels in the face of this.
B-trayed, what you wrote about the wood block really resonated with me. I like the idea of having something that I can look at to remind myself of the mind set of an SA. A big chunk of wood that my H would describe completely different than me. My heartache is always there to remind myself of the pain and sadness that continues to wash over me in waves several times a day. That is something that I can’t seem to control. But I can control my thoughts. The piece of wood can be a reminder for me that it is not all about the heartache. The wood grain is different for him and I. It is a visual for me that balance’s out the emotional piece from the intellectual knowledge. When I am having a wave of sadness I hope to look at the wood and remember that I can’t make a blind man see. This will be really good for me especially because I live in a log cabin. Lots of wood grain to see!!!!! 🙂
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