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I think the dilemma for ethical professionals like Minwalla is that they truly want to offer a solution for a problem that has been demonstrated through decades of research to have no solution.
It is a case of trying to hammer that square peg (a disordered person) into a round hole they call Sex Addiction.
Any psychiatrist will tell you that Personality Disorders cannot be cured and any small changes come only after years of focused behavioral modification therapy, which, in most cases, is not successful.
I am encouraged by the recent work that has been done that recognizes and offers treatment for the trauma that Partners endure, but I am discouraged that these professionals try to tag the treatment of the Sex Addict on it’s coat tails.
Can’t we have just this one thing for ourselves? ~ JoAnn
One thing’s for sure. We’ve made a rich man out of Minwalla. Or should I say richer. I’ve spent over $8,500 and I know you ladies have spent more. Just from SOS he’s made a sizeable sum.
Well I still think we are getting somewhere, even if we are the only ones who get it.
I honestly think that it is in focussing on the partners’ experiences and devastating consequences of the SA behaviours that the therapists will begin to face the real treatment crisis for the SA, and the abuse visited upon the spouse will become a real and recognized part of the assessment of the SA. It is in the diminishing of this truth of our experience, or ignoring it outright, that these men go forward without proper accountability or treatment.
And finally, maybe we will be able to keep them out of their twit-faced little certification programs that send them off as “experts” to “counsel” other people.
Well, in fairness to Minwalla…maybe he doesn’t know who to recommend because there isn’t anyone to recommend?? God knows that we as much as anyone are aware of the number of charlatans out there promising what they cannot actually deliver? That happens quite a bit when you try to treat cancer with orthopaedic surgery. I also like the fact that the word hopeless is being thrown around. I think Jo’s husband’s psych test probably indicate quite a bit…..as in he isn’t normal. Who says he has an addiction? I mean really? Why do we think he has an addiction? Because he is a pathological liar, sneaks around, uses his family and does weird sexual stuff? So what. Sociopaths do the same damn thing.
My one complaint and about Minwalla and ALL of them is THEY should call a spade a spade. If they think the guy is psycho…they should just bloody say so. Up straight and not sugar coated.
Jo…you are a therapist. I know you are emotionally involved and that clouds things ….just the same..what do YOU think can be done for your husband that hasn’t already been done. You can lead a horse to water and all that good stuff. This sex addiction treatment and the entire diagnosis is very sketchy. There may be some well intentioned people working in the bus but that doesn’t mean they have it right. Maybe you should just send your H to Dr Simon. I think he knows all our husbands way better than ANYONE else does.
I’m really sorry this did not go well for you. I have no answers. They are lost causes I think. I’ll tell you what i told daisy and so many others. If you want to stay with him and accept the few positive things he has to offer…then stay and plan to put most of your energy into your own life. If you want love, intimacy, devotion, honesty, normal sex ect, leave the marriage and look elsewhere. Hope is a real detriment if you are married and love one of these men.
I’m sorry Jo. I really am. Big Hugs, Karen xxJomard there is a member of SOS called Penny. Her husband was doing well in his recovery. I’m not sure if it would help if you made contact with her to find the name and location of her husband’s therapist.
With regard to the ‘treatment plan’. I would call ISH to advise them that you have the cover only and someone else’s plan. I think Danielle does a lot of the collating/paperwork and although she is a real sweetie I’m not entirely sure she is up to the job or maybe she just needs a little help. That said, I’m not sure your husband’s treatment plan would be any different to Mr x’s They all require a rewiring of the brain which means you need to spend a shit load of money with the possibility of no positive outcome.
I went to the intensive in June in already knew I was traumatised. The intensive helped me deal with the trauma and some long standing self esteem issues I had. It might not be for everyone but it was life changing for me.
I’m still with my husband and he appears to be in recovery or at least he is taming the beast. We spend a small fortune on therapy, his, mine and ours. At the end of the day I don’t trust him right now and I doubt I ever will. His professions of love for me do not reconcile with his actions. Im not talking about recent past actions but his failure to maintain sobriety a couple of years ago despite him being witness to my pain on discovery. For the time being I choose to remain married but Im not sure what the future holds.Jo I just looked up a post written by Penny. Her husband’s therapist is John Watterson. In the post she said he is every bit as good as Omar and very, very special.
Yeah, John Watterson is in Texas, who Minwalla said to Jo he didn’t know anything about. He is open to phone therapy, according to what he told me via email:
“I do treat sexual addiction and I do have one current patient who moved to Japan and we have had phone sessions and periodic updates via email. It’s something that I would be open to trying provided the patient was open to doing some additional reading and possibly online Sex Addicts Anonymous meetings also. Let me know more about the situation.”
It’s very sloppy regarding another client’s name on his report. They should not be giving out personally identifiable information of clients to other clients. If it was Mr X’s actual personal report, obviously it should be confidential.
In fairness to us, the program specifically states the $11k treatment will include “Aftercare Planning and Local Referral” and “Developing a cohesive long-term treatment plan”. If there really isn’t anyone Minwalla is comfortable refering them to, then perhaps they need to edit that part as it’s somewhat misleading, or find a way to provide phone therapy themselves through ISH, or alternatively be upfront and assess referral options first during the initial consultation.
This is why I’ve been searching for phone therapists, because there’s no point in my SA flying there and coming home with zero long-term options available.
I emailed Dan Drake first (ISH), before going through every CSAT page — he was incredibly understanding to me. He said there are potential licensing issues for him, but he may provide it one day in the future — like years from now– since there is an obvious need, “I do realize there are a LOT of people out there that aren’t getting the care they need or deserve.”
Minwalla has worked by phone with my husband’s CSAT since our first meeting at ISH in March. I believe he is willing to speak with any therapist that is open to it. They do not talk all the time, but they have had several phone conversations regarding h’s treatment plan. Minwalla also did an hour long session with the CSAT and h to prepare for the disclosure. Minwalla also called me the day of the disclosure to offer support before and after. The man is spread too thin. He needs other therapists to buy into his model and it is obviously very slow going. Carnes has cornered the market because he got there first. Hopefully Minwalla will get his book out soon, get on some morning TV, and turn the SA world on its ear. I think there will be an avalanche of partners coming forward once he goes very public. Then therapists will have to listen or have no business.
They offer a SAITM training course for therapists — I found this point very poignant, “In the end, the heart of this clinical paradigm shift, aims to challenge what we all have come to know as normal; sexual entitlement prioritized over human rights”.
I suppose the real questions are is anyone going and will Minwalla even recommend/give referrals to these therapists afterwards. It sounds like it would be a given, but it’s clearly not that simple.
Trish, it’s very good the support you were provided. It’s a shame he is unable to do actual phone therapy sessions for SA’s who don’t have valid options after the intensive.
Again I think the problem is he is one person with a heavily burdened program, does not necessarily help Jo for me to say this but I do believe he will be leaving clinical work soon if more people are not adopting this model. He will/is burning out. I have had an amazing life shift and I am starting to see that his value might end up being more for partners. most of the SA’s take some pressure to go, like everything related to recovery, and there are few if any reliable referral sources. we are all cobbling something together that doesn’t look like co-addict garbage. I feel peace, conviction, direction, and a commitment to myself that is fearless and without anger, who knew! ultimately that is all we have to work with, ourselves…
Love to all of you on this journeyThanks all for your thoughts on this. After a day of reflection, I don’t think I would recommend this 9 day intensive for sa’s. I looked through all the course material my h brought home, and really there wasn’t anything new there from what we already read and “knew”(as he said to me on the first night, which i dismissed as his arrogance). It was a combination of Carne’s workbook-type exploration: timeline of early childhood and adult wounds, arousal template, cognitive-behavioral affirmations and thought distortions, and “circle” development. The partner trauma piece was part of one day- no handouts on that, so my h couldn’t remember all of the types of traumas delineated. He said it was a power point slide with women’s quotes about how their lives were impacted by the sa. he said it was powerful, but he couldn’t really say much more. I think he got a lot of information, but probably not enough time to usefully work with it. It sort of reminds me of a crash survey course using cliff notes. And then you’d have to go home and really read and understand and work through the information with a trusted and knowledgable guide. That’s a tall order, and maybe one that was unrealistic to begin with.
The sad truth is that there is so much personal and relational trauma by this problem. Even when the sa wants to fix this, it is hard to figure out how. the behaviors can be controlled (maybe forever?), but the underlying problems remain. Is there a person under the problem or is the person defined completely by the problem? Do you like/love the person under the problem? How much time and energy and love and tears do you want to pour into trying to figure out the above questions? I don’t have the answers to this for myself, let alone anyone else, but I know the answers are complicated if you choose to stay, and simpler if you choose to go. The harder road, IMO, is to try to work it out somehow. That’s when you get into all the side streets that lead nowhere or long stretches of highway with no end in sight or enormous barriers that block the path (sorry for the long metaphor). Or you can continue to drive wearing a blindfold and hope you don’t crash.
What troubled me most about ISH was the hopelessness that emerged at the end. Even if I don’t stay with my h, (and I have given him a 6 month reprieve with no work on our marriage, only him establishing sobriety with a poly at the end and then a decision after that) I could tell that he was devastated by the utter lack of hope for himself. I don’t know if Minwalla was just trying the “scared straight” route, but it was devastating to him to hear that his prognosis was so bad and that he would need a very, very competent therapist and that there were none to offer. What are you supposed to do with that information? And then there I am, so hurt and angry and detached, offering him nothing- no support or help, either. I did feel sorry for him. Despite all the shit he’s done over the years to our marriage and family, I still see the little boy inside of him who was very neglected and whose reality was denied. Maybe I shouldn’t have that compassion, maybe he doesn’t deserve it. Maybe I can have it and still disengage from the marriage to save myself. I don’t know.
What i know is that the 9 day intensive for my h probably did more harm than good in terms of totally devastating any hope my h had for himself. It is hard to stay motivated to work on yourself if you are hearing you are a hopeless cause. As much as that might even be true, it seems too harsh to be helpful.P.S. I have a call scheduled with Minwalla today to discuss the concerns I have. Not sure why I am doing that even- except to close the loop.
I think every once in a while Minwalla gets a glimpse of the utter and complete uselessness of the therapeutic options and he can’t bring himself to offer what isn’t going to work.
He’s a case study himself in the uncovering of what’s actually going on with some of these men. And the only way to get at it is to take what they are doing to their partners seriously.
I hope your call provides you with the opportunity to name your concerns and disappointments, Jo. I think you are fantastic to see this through and keep pushing at the corners.
Thanks, Diane. Minwalla may well be correct in seeing the utter hopelessness in some of these men. And perhaps we as spouses need to really hear and see that hopelessness to free ourselves from the life-sucking efforts of trying to rehabilitate them. But, I don’t like the message given to anyone that you are a worthless, hopeless human being- it just feels like it would seriously harm any chance of someone trying to heal. And I can not presume to know if my h’s chance to redeem himself exists or not…maybe it’s small, or maybe I don’t want to sacrifice myself any further to find out what’s possible or not. I’m very much in the “i don’t know” frame of mind. In many ways, it would be easier to cut my losses and leave, and in other ways, I still feel concern and care, and yes- even some sort of love- for my h who I see as wounded and sick, but not evil. I don’t have to live with wounded and sick, and I can certainly see how I should perhaps “save myself” and run for the hills. And, I have 32 years of life with him and he has parts of him- maybe small, but still notable- that I see as worthwhile and good. Really struggling with this, and I know I won’t stay in the struggle for ever. Just sharing my thoughts and process as they unfold.
Please Jo, keep sharing! I think you and I are in very similar positions with regard to our Hs and hearing your thoughts on this is extremely helpful to me. I could have written this same thing:
“I’m very much in the “i don’t know” frame of mind. In many ways, it would be easier to cut my losses and leave, and in other ways, I still feel concern and care, and yes- even some sort of love- for my h who I see as wounded and sick, but not evil. I don’t have to live with wounded and sick, and I can certainly see how I should perhaps “save myself” and run for the hills. And, I have 32 years of life with him and he has parts of him- maybe small, but still notable- that I see as worthwhile and good. Really struggling with this, and I know I won’t stay in the struggle for ever.”
Hugs to you,
DaisyWell put, Jo–and I hope you will put that in front of Dr. M.
It’s all very hard to know where to grab a fingerhold. And very hard knowing where to not bother trying. It feels to me like we have to do all the heavy lifting for ourselves and for the SA’s. Why is that?
Oh, Jo, I am so sorry. One would think that after a 9-day intensive & spending a shit-load of money, that you would be left with something – good or bad, it wouldn’t be hopelessness. I think this illustrates the very problem with this “addiction” (I’m with Karen that I’m not sure that many of these guys are actually addicted and really have PDs covered up by their penis activities) – there is no “magic bullet”. I think so many of the sisters – myself included – think of Minwalla as the “last great hope” and yes, seems like some SAs have gotten help and more importantly, many sisters have felt their experience with his partner intensive to be incredibly validating but to hear that your experience and Courtney’s and others wasn’t so great, is very disheartening. As angry as I am with my h., I feel as you do, that he’s not “evil”. He is sick and I just don’t know if he can truly ever recover b/c I’m realizing he has some core PD at the root of his issues. He has been going weekly to a great therapist in our area who understands SA but more importantly, she calls him out on his shit and he listens/respects that (he’s always had a problem with “authority”, which I think may be one of the warning signs of a PD) I no longer have hope for our relationship but I have hope for him, as long as he continues to work with her. So, I think motivation, coupled with regular therapy with a therapist who holds them accountable is one way to start on the road to recovery. That being said, the therapist can only work on the stuff my h. admits too and I know for a fact that he is still “acting out” in some way (i.e. strip clubs & porn).
Catherine mentioned Penny – I think her husband is one of the only examples of successful recovery (so far). She is no longer on the board b/c she felt she needed a break but I am in touch with her so if you want to connect with her, send me a PM with your info and I’ll forward that to her.
Christine
Christine, Penny and I joined at virtually the same time last year and had many similarities in our stories. Her story has taken a different and more successful (we can hope) path but I miss having her here. When you next speak to her, please tell her I think about her often and wish her all the best.
Daisy
If it’s consolation to any of you – I have seen transformation – I am not ready to champion what that means for anyone else’s story or even for my marriage – but I have seen recovery of the man beneath the mask:-)
Jo I am in tune with what you are saying. I believe my husband is on the path to recovery. Not only has the SA stuff stopped but along with it all his other selfish behaviours. Occasionally I hear some weird attitudes and I call him to account. That is all. He knows I can follow him on his phone and he has no problem with it. In fact he says he wants me to. I can talk freely with him at any time. I ask him the same questions over and over and although he has answered them a million times before I see no signs of frustration. He is so confident in maintaining his sobriety. The biggest issue is I cannot trust him. His therapist told him that in time trust will build. I’m not sure of that.
It is a terrible dilemma when you like or love so much about a person. Like you I feel so sorry for the wounded child in him and even sorrier for the adult that has to as Minwalla says ‘watch the wreck that he has caused’. I guess the issue for us is that I also have a wounded child in me so my capacity for recovery from this will be a problem. Perhaps Penny started at a different place.Wow-what an interesting thread….
My two cents-I have found my intensives with Minwalla extremely powerful -he has raised many questions in my mind regarding the therapy that both my husband and I have gotten -this, although frustrating (because there is no one in NM where I live that is qualified) has also provided me with the impetus to make changes. I left my therapist and do phone coaching with Barbara Steffens, my husband has been looking for a new therapist, and I have been providing information to our couples therapist on training in the trauma model. I also left with a lot of “to do’s” which include collecting data on some things I see in myself, writing, rewriting boundaries, and communication work.I view my relationship from a different paradigm and I have grown as a person from the work. No magic formulas but I have gained some tools.
We also have spoken at length about my husband at ish. He went to the one day trauma model and didn’t get it the way I had hoped -but dr minwalla was astute enough to know from just a few hours with him that he didn’t have the capacity to grasp it and he wondered if there were some cognitive issues.
I think that is the case so I know that in order for my husband to grasp it he would need just a few hours -like 2- every other day -with dr minwalla over a period of a couple of weeks….
That’s my gut and we can’t afford that at this point….so I too asked for recommendations and sad enough to say he really doesn’t know anyone. Very few folks are trained right now -but there is hope….Barbara Steffens recently trained some folks in my area so hopefully after they gain some experience they may be good…
I think talking to him before anyone embarks on these intensives is a good idea-clarifying expectations up front will help manage the frustration.
I will be at the October intensive and my expectations are to meet women who have experience like mine so we can share and learn and bond, learn how to recognize covert abuse better, practice setting boundaries, have my feelings validated and hopefully leave with more clarity around my relationship.
I don’t think my husband would benefit from the 9 day intensive but I do think a few ind meetings may help him look at his own treatment differently….
Barbara, I am in NM too. No trained trauma therapists here but H is going to a sa trained therapist who just moved here from Las Vegas, the land of excess.
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