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Be gentle with yourself SOT. This is difficult stuff to wrap your head around. I am convinced that I couldn’t have been ready until now to make this move and I have to accept that the fallout from my inaction will be part of my own and my kid’s growth and journey. This is character-building stuff. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but it is what we all got, so we have to just let it do it’s work to some way make us stronger and more whole women in the end! Trying to be positive today đ
Of course both people are free to disagree with one another. Again, that is what makes a discussion. What is not acceptable is castigating a Sister for expressing her own opinion in a way that you disagree with. Disagree with the opinion all you want but don’t give a Sister shit about speaking her truth. I find that if a Sister is defensive about what she hears and throws a lot of defensive shit back at the Sisters, a lot of the Sisters (including me) will stop posting on her threads. There is no point in speaking my truth to deaf ears.
Daisey are you implying that I threw alot of defensive shit back at someone or are you referring to someone else?
SOT, I did not respond to you because JoAnn asked us to stay out of trouble while she is taking a much deserved vacation and trouble is exactly what you are attempting to stir up. After what you posted above, I asked JoAnn for her okay to respond and she gave it so now I will answer your question. My statement was general. I was not referring to you nor was I referring to someone else. If it was directed to you I would have said so. However, in light of what you posted above, I would have to say if the shoe fits…
Perhaps you would care to explain exactly how I gaslighted you. That is a powerful accusation to make. You essentially accused me of acting like an SA which is both untrue and inflammatory. Talk about throwing a rock… You should be prepared to back up statements like that because I do not take such accusations lightly. I do not need to throw a rock and I certainly feel no need to hide from you or anyone else.
Oh and you asked what castigate means on another thread. Here’s the dictionary definition: Castigate: to subject to severe punishment, reproof, or criticism (Merriam-Webster online dictionary).
I am sorry to Daisy and any other sister that was unconfortable with my posts. I am a fixer. When it seemed to me that Daisy was accusing me of “throwing shit” I wanted to fix it. When you Daisy didn’t answer me I felt ignored and gaslighted. Gaslighting includes emotional abandonment. I am able to google castigate but I wasnt sure the point of reference or what I did that could be considered punishing to anyone. Once again. I apologize if I hurt anyone by this post or any other post.
That was less of an apology IMO and more of an explanation as to why you felt it was okay to accuse me of gaslighting you. I have never seen a definition of gaslighting that includes emotional abandonment and even if it were included, I do not understand how my apparently not answering your post according to your time table makes me a gaslighter OR subjected you to emotional abandonment. The “point of reference” for my use of the word castigate was sisters who subject other Sisters to “reproof or criticism” for disagreeing with their opinion. I think if you look back through this thread you will see examples of what I was referring to.
Normally I am very good at defending the people I care about but not very good at defending myself. In this instance, however, what you said about me was so completely out of bounds that I feel compelled to stick up for myself. Implying that I was acting like an SA is massively insulting and demeaning. Perhaps no one else sees it as a big deal but I do. I have spent a year on this site learning from the Sisters and giving them whatever help I can give as a means of trying to pay back the love and support that I have found here. To be likened in ANY way to the men who have abused us is appalling to me. It is not a question of being uncomfortable with your posts it is because you very directly came at me in a way that was deliberately designed to be as nasty as possible. So “any other sister” or “anyone hurt by this post” may be fine with this explanation of why you did what you did but for me it is not enough.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Gaslighting is a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.“Perhaps no one else sees it as a big deal but I do.”
I see insults and demeaning comments as a big deal. I also want this very much to be a supportive but “real” place for everyone.
This is the way I understand what’s happened:
⢠A post was made, in reply to SOT, that said “What is not acceptable is castigating a Sister for expressing her own opinion in a way that you disagree with. Disagree with the opinion all you want but donât give a Sister shit about speaking her truth.”
⢠The “you” in that lead SOT to believe it was directed at her and that she was being accused by Daisy of castigating Karen.
⢠The following part “I find that if a Sister is defensive about what she hears and throws a lot of defensive shit back at the Sisters, a lot of the Sisters (including me) will stop posting on her threads” was perceived by SOT as a warning, that if a sister is ever defensive she will be denied support/emotional abandonment.
⢠SOT asked Daisy for clarification about whether the post was about her or another sister. Because she hadn’t castigated/punished Karen, so felt confused, doubting her own perceptions.
⢠Daisy didn’t reply to the question — later explaining she chose not to answer because she considered the question asking for clarification as an attempt to stir trouble.
⢠SOT accepted the no answer as confirmation that it was about her, and thus felt gaslighted by the original post. She then posted she was gaslighted by a sister.
⢠Daisy replied the reference wasn’t about SOT. She asked SOT to explain exactly why she felt gaslighted.
⢠SOT explained why she felt gaslighted and apologized.I did see Karen and SOT’s interactions as very genuine. They were open and frank, yes, but I don’t see a problem with that. However, apparently there are examples throughout this thread before the Daisy/SOT interaction? Perhaps I am missing something because I can’t find any posts where a sister was severely punished, reproofed, criticized. Unless something was removed.
I see a support forum as more than a discussion forum. Both are a meeting of minds, open to honest debate of issues and ideas. However, here we intend to promote healing and resilience through connection, education, and support. It’s an incredibly intimate meeting of hearts and souls, and we post our personal stories with an expectation that our trauma will be held safely.
Most of us are working hard to heal ourselves, and surviving through the darkest and most difficult times of our lives. Sometimes we seek advice, other times we seek validation, witness, understanding, sanctuary, processing, self-reflection, reality checks, accountability, a kick in the butt, comfort, encouragement, a shoulder to cry on, a hand to hold, and even purely a safe place to document the horrors.
We are opening up our souls — and there is a certain vulnerability and fragility in doing that, as we have been so shattered from our traumatic experiences. The very nature of PTSD means our brains and nervous systems are on alert, and we can be triggered by what’s said, and meaning misinterpreted.
In saying that, I think it’s pretty normal for a sister to defend herself if something incorrect is said or implied about her individual life or personal circumstances. Sometimes assumptions or generalizations may be made, which may not be true regarding the particular sister. One sister’s truth may not necessarily be another’s truth. Our personal lived experiences matter. As much as our situations are similar, they also vary — we don’t fit into a one size fits all box. We are a group of trauma victims/survivors discussing and opening up about some of the most private, personal, and painful stuff imaginable, it’s natural and inevitable for strong emotions to be felt at times. Many of our voices and realities have been silenced in so many ways. Standing up for ourselves, the ability to express how we feel, reclaiming our voice, proclaiming our truth, is an essential part of healing from the impact of sex addiction, trauma, and abuse.
What a beautiful AND powerful post, Victoria! So can we all kiss and wear makeup now, dear sisters? đ
Thanks for your posts Victoria. I too feel badly when sisters are at odds with each other. Especially when it seems to be just a misunderstanding….I think both SOT & Daisy are lovely!
I have seen sisters take a break from the site when they feel they have been wrongly accused and unsupported. I am guessing Daisy feels that way now.
She never mentioned SOT. She didn’t respond to SOT’s original question because she did not want to stir up any trouble or controversy. She only responded after SOT accused her of gaslighting, throwing rocks and ‘hiding’.
I would imagine that any of us would be upset at that accusation. Just because I do not respond to a thread immediately in no way indicates that I am gaslighting or throwing rocks or hiding.
If anyone was doing any gaslighting it was SOT. She denied she was talking about Karen and acted like Karen had made a big leap to assume such ( classic gaslighting). Anybody with any sense clearly saw she was talking about Karen. Karen handled it and Daisy backed her up. That should have been enough.
It’s fine with me to kiss and wear makeup dear Liza but I won’t be a part of it when Daisy is hurt đ
wow, i missed this one. daisy, i’m so sorry.
there are certain terms and words, that are, in themselves triggers for a lot of us.
acting out
slips
inner circle…
hell, i even get triggered if i see too many xsi never thought of gas lighting would be a term that could hurt here, but when applied to a sister, it is a very loaded word.
they way i understand gaslighting, basically, someone is trying to convince you of an untruth. the gaslighter is trying to make the other person doubt their sense of reality. to make them feel like they are crazy.
i cannot, for the life of me, see why not responding to a post for -one- day, is in any way related to gas lighting. hell, maybe you are away from your computer for a day. you got busy, your internet was down. you didn’t check on that thread. there could be A THOUSAND reasons why someone might not respond to a thread, which may have nothing to do with the other person at all. and even if it did, maybe the other person is thinking about it. or maybe they just don’t know what to say. or, maybe they don’t want to get into a fight. maybe they are just setting a boundary and limiting contact in a situation that feels confrontational.
i would suggest if there are personal questions and the sender wants an answer (in this case SOT), send a private message so the person is sure to get it.
it is always best to phrase things in the terms of our feelings. ‘daisy, i’m hurt that you didn’t respond. could you please answer my question’ works better.
even stating ‘i felt gaslighted’ is slightly better. but that still includes that very hurt full term if applied to a partner. that term is really meant for behaviour that is HEINOUS. H E I N O U S
‘detachment’ ‘gaslighting’ ’empowerment’ ‘abuse cycle’ these things are difficult things to wrap your head around. i’ve been on the site and in intense therapy for over a year, read tons of books, and i feel like i’m JUST beginning to understand what these words might mean.
we are all in trauma, we are all delicate. let’s not hurt each other. if in doubt, i suggest we phrase things in terms of our feelings. in terms of our own experience.
I hear that Bev, đ Sorry if it sounded like I was making light of the situation. Daisy, you know I’m always in your corner.
Daisy–I love you too! I just hate to see us at odds. I think sometimes we might be talking about patterns that happen here and not specific people or even incidents–to that end I am giving SOT the benefit of the doubt.
I can see it was misdirected, but it seems that SOT was also trying to stick up for herself. I think that is hard for many of us. Now Daisy is defending herself against SOTs misdirected defense. It is so good that we are able to stand up for ourselves and I hope this is a safe place to try that out. We are learning alot about the manipulative and abusive tactics many of our SAs have used and maybe some sisters are being overly sensitized to them and seeing them where they arent. Im not a mind reader. I honestly dont know. But I strongly suspect that what has happened here is more misunderstanding than ill will.
Every woman on this site has been through hell and many are in the thick of it right now. It is hard to watch us hurting each other here–especially when Im pretty sure that isnt anyones intention.Hello,
Meaning is lost in translation when communicated in a forum. Tone, body language, sarcasm etc… However, I am grateful for this site.
First of all, I did apologize to Karen. I did not mean anything to hurt her and she wasn’t even in my mind when I wrote that. I am pretty sure I even thanked her for her post. She may have been the last one to write that statement but I have seen it/heard it multiple times. I have heard it in life (my bio sisters). I was crying foul over the concept that “you live with what you allow.” If that is true aren’t all of the sister on here allowing her abuse?
Second, Thank you for Victoria for trying to explain this. I think you have a profound understanding of abuse, and I am not always very descriptive. 1st because I am usually trying to read/post from my phone or tab because I don’t want H to know what I am doing. 2nd because I am usually using my phone it is hard to type without a million typos and very time consuming.
Daisy: “You should be prepared to back up statements like that because I do not take such accusations lightly. I do not need to throw a rock and I certainly feel no need to hide from you”
SOT: This is an excerpt from the Gaslight effect, “The Gaslight effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sens of self and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval. Gaslighters and gaslightees can be of either gender, and gaslighting can happen in any type of relationship.
One type of gaslighters is The Indimidator: When he Bullies, Guilt-trips, and withholds.
Why do we go along with it? Why do we bend ourselves out of shape to fit a gaslighter’s vision? I believe there are two reasons: fear of the Emotional Apocalypse and the Urge to Merge. Fear of the Emotional Apocalypse, Most gaslighters seem to hold in a reserve a secret weapon, an emotional explosion that flattens everything in its vicinity and poisons the atmosphere for weeks afterward.
A person in a gaslighting relationship fears that if the gaslighter is pushed too far, he’ll invoke this Emotional Apocalypse. The gaslightee is terrified that her partner
might yell, or criticise her, or even leave her, and she is sure that if her fear is realized, she’ll be completely overwhelmed. Sterns, Robin. (2007). “The Gaslight Effect: How to Spot and Survive the Hidden Manipulations Other People use to Control.”
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Daisy: “I find that if a Sister is defensive about what she hears and throws a lot of defensive shit back at the Sisters, a lot of the Sisters (including me) will stop posting on her threads. There is no point in speaking my truth to deaf ears.”SOT: Because I really do not like unresolved conflict and didn’t want to be cast off of the island (which I have a feeling happens frequently on this site): “Daisey are you implying that I threw alot of defensive shit back at someone or are you referring to someone else?”
Daisy’s 1st response: “My statement was general. I was not referring to you nor was I referring to someone else. If it was directed to you I would have said so. However, in light of what you posted above, I would have to say if the shoe fits⌔
Daisy’s second response: The âpoint of referenceâ for my use of the word castigate was sisters who subject other Sisters to âreproof or criticismâ for disagreeing with their opinion. I think if you look back through this thread you will see examples of what I was referring to.
SOT: Which is it? Is it a general statement or did you really have a post in mind? Did I write something wrong or not? I truly did not mean to hurt anyone. How do I fix it.
________________________________________________ Jo: I see insults and demeaning comments as a big deal. I also want this very much to be a supportive but ârealâ place for everyoneSOT: Apparently it is OK for some sisters on this site to assassinate another sister’s character and that is considered “real” or “truth” but when another sister not in the “club” tries to explain or reverse the mirror then it is castigating.
If the answer to my very direct question was benign, (no I wasn’t referring to you) it is a little odd that it took 10 hours to answer.
I have never in my life required permission from anyone to do the right thing. Why is permission needed to defuse a situation?
________________________________________________If a am publicly assassinated then I reserve the right to publicly defend myself. I agree if anyone ever thinks ill of me please send me a PM and I will attempt to explain. The opportunity to defend yourself is only polite.I am sorry my battery is dying. I am in my car tethering off of my phone because I am at work. So I have to stop now.
_______________________________________________I am sorry, I didn’t mean anything Heinous by the term. However I viewed that threat as very intimidating.
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All I have to offer is an apology. If that is not sufficient then best wishes.daisy, i’m glad you saw my post. you know i love you and hold you in very high regard.
sot, i really want to ask you to let go of the gaslighter stuff in regards to daisy. it is very hurtful. not only to daisy. i’ve been upset all morning.
feel free to express your hurt, and your feelings. just stop using that word, defining it, giving examples. and please stop trying to make your case. your apology would mean more without defensiveness.
it’s very simple. you used a words and especially one word that was hurtful in regard to a friend of mine. a dear dear woman who i care deeply about.
you know that i care about you too. i see that you are in a an abusive situation. i understand what that is like.
my husband gaslighted me when he was fucking hookers, stealing money from me. letting crack whores suck his dick. risking his life and mine. telling me i was ugly, worthless. telling me he didn’t physically threaten me. telling me in front of my son that my relationship with him was innappropriate (read sexual). i could go on. it was awful. it was horrific. he wanted me to think i was crazy so that he could believe he was sane. THAT is gas lighting.
i save the term gas lighting for something that serious.
Wow, I am late to the party. I read it the thread like Bev, and I tried to stay out because of JoAnn’s vacation. Also, I tend to just walk away when things trigger me until I can respond calmly, and I have to say accusing a sister of gaslighting was very upsetting to me. And I don’t see that Daisy did any gaslighting.
Daisy, I am sorry that I didn’t speak out publicly. I PMd you instead because JoAnn was on vacation. I thought you did a great job standing up for yourself when JoAnn gave you the greenlight, and I thought things had blown over. I am glad that you spoke up and let us know how you felt and what you need. I am sure that that accusation was hurtful. I know that it stung me even though it wasn’t even aimed at me.
Big hug for you and for the little girl in you, Daisy, that felt that sting from long ago and then got no support from your mom.
Oh gosh I’ve just scanned through these last posts and it is just too disturbing and I feel scared. I hope we can all move on from this. I’m sorry for anyone who is hurt. I’ve been hurt before by posts and I’ve inadvertently done some hurting myself. As I’ve said before all we have are words on a screen, no facial expression, no tone of voice, no inflection, no touch. Add to that the fact that we are all at different levels of fuckupedness then I think we all do pretty well not to have more conflict. We need to dust ourselves off and continue to help each other. I’m not minimising the hurt felt by any sister but we need each other. xox
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