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JoAnn bravely shared a post from another time in her life married to a sex addict. It reflected what she believed at the time. I know some of my early posts on the other site also held a perspective on this challenge of sex addiction/compulsion that I no longer have. It was early in my journey then, and I had no idea what I was really dealing with.
I’m still optimistic, but the focus of my optimism has shifted off of “them” and squarely lands on “us”.
JoAnn states that she never wants to give “false hope”, and I am totally in sync with that. (Hence that many barbs thrown at us that we are “negative”.) So I’m wondering how we recognize true “hope” and false “hope”. Is there a criteria of questions or something that will help us know what we have and what we CAN have?
We can’t do without hope altogether, but false hope is dangerous around these guys. So how do we contrast the two?
Great question Diane!
I equate the choice to have hope with how much information you have. I did not have truthful information from counselors, therapists or Larry. I was ‘winging’ it all on my own.
I guess when I talk about false hope in context of my websites I am speaking of ‘authorities’ who claim high rates of success in fixing the man, and those sites that proclaim that faith and prayer will cure the situation and you will be happier than ever before.
That is blatant false hope in my opinion because there is no basis for these claims.
When I say I don’t want to give false hope I am trying to give an honest picture of these men and what a relationship looks like (from my aged perspective).
I know that every relationship is different, as every man is different, but discussing the similarities and hearing the honesty from other women, I hope gives each of us enough honest information to make an informed decision about whether to hold out hope for our individual situation or to begin the process of entertaining other choices.
In the healthcare field a person cannot legally sign a consent form unless they have read and have the ability to understand all the facts. It’s hard to read all of those possible complications, and often there are pages of them, but, we cannot even make a choice if we don’t know all the implications of that choice.
So, I guess for me Diane, any hope that does not include all of the facts is false hope.
As in my case, I never knew (as it barely existed) what a full disclosure with polygraph was. I relied on the tearfully given, sworn, written statements from Larry.
I bet my life on his sworn statements.
They were lies.
My hope was as false as the entire relationship, yet I didn’t even know it.
My message to the Sisters is:
You cannot decide if you want to live with someone unless you know who they are and what they are capable of.
If you have choices to find out the truths and choose not to know then that also is an informed choice IF, and this is a big IF you realize that your life could blow up in your face at any time and IF you are prepared to deal with that.
You cannot fall apart in that situation and claim you were deceived. That choice not to know puts that responsibility solely on their shoulders. Many women will choose to do that, and that is their choice.
That’s my ‘opinion’ for the day ~ JoAnn
Really well said JoAnn and great thought provoking topic Diane. I would like to add also that TRUST plays a huge part in the hope of the relationship. For example, I do not trust my xh at all based on all his lies, secrects, shenanigans during the divorce. For me, no trust means no hope for any kind of a relationship. If my xh became contrite, remorseful, took treatment on his own accord, quit the secrets and the lies, his actions matched his words, then maybe I could trust him. With that trust could be hope for a relationship. However, no trust would be a false hope. Trust and hope go hand in hand. ~Nap
That’s a hard one. Of course you can have hope in your own right. But hope in the relationship with an SA, what is false and what is true? When you don’t know the cards they are holding, and they have to hold cards, it’s how they operate, how will you ever know what is true and what is false? I think you can’t ever know which relational hope they are going to crush with their deceit. Isn’t that what relapse is? If this is an addiction, that’s a lifetime maintenance situation, all hopes are subject to relapse at any time. If this is PD based, it’s the same. Behavioral modification does not cure it, just keeps it at bay, and that can change at any moment.
What hope do we have, in the relationship?
That is will become less hellish? That we will begin to see their true selves and be less shocked and damaged and “understand” their behavior and not “take it personally”. But it will never be heaven. We can never let our guard down.
Do you ever get to, really, in a normal relationship? I think you would, but don’t have that experience, yet. I wonder if that’s where I keep going wrong, too. I know the other person is human, and will act in his own best interest most of the time. However, isn’t it normal to expect that a person would at least curtail his actions when he sees pain in the person he’s supposed to love? In my imaginings of love, or even just humanity, you don’t continue behaviors that obviously hurt others. You either stop, or remove the others from the blast site before you detonate. No blasting loved ones.
Guess I’m saying that any hope that includes an SA acting on behalf of anyone but himself, on a consistent basis without threat of severe reprecussions if he slips, is a false hope. That makes SAs on the same page with NARCs relationally, and I may be wrong. But it’s what I’ve experienced and hear on this website, mostly.
Real hope, is in yourself and your ability to determine your own actions and attitudes.
False hope, anything else.I don’t know if you can ever feel confident that you have enough information…you might know about the past- but how can you trust that you will know the present and the future? If they’ve lied and deceived you once, I don’t know how you could ever trust them again, even if they do do the whole recovery thing. So then do you trust the monitoring. I think that’s false hope- a false sense of security.
Maybe it’s like having a terminal disease where you just hope for a miracle?
I think for me it would matter where I was in the relationship or more of where he was in recovery. My PA is not in recovery so for me right now false hope is when I’m thinking with my heart. then I give my head a shake and the brain takes over. I start thinking logically again. To have hope now is just torturing myself. I will know if he is in recovery so I don’t dare have hope until, if ever, that moment arrives. The let down hurts too much.
I tend to be very scientific in my approach to things…so I’m in Joann’s camp. You have to know what you are dealing with before you know whether or not there is hope for a quasi normal life with these guys. This is a disease (IMO), so I want a knowledgeable doctor who knows what they are talking about to tell me what’s going on and whether or not my SAH can keep his penis in his pants going forward. I know that he will always have the urges – but can he resist the urges (psychologicial based) and the brain chemistry hit that goes with it?
I wish there was someone who could help. I wish there was a Mayo Clinic for SAs. Someone who really understands this field. There is much more is known of drug and alcohol addiction – and other mental illnesses like bi-polar, depression, etc. but when it comes to SA and the PD’s that may co-exist – we are left in the dark. I would give my eye teeth (and maybe even the other half of my boobs) if I could know my SAH’s diagnosis and what the best treatment plan is (and the odds of relapse, etc.).
I was going down that route with my SA with the SDI and treatment plan with a CSAT and he bailed. He then went with a trauma therapist and SA groups…..and now just SA groups. I don’t feel that any so called “expert” (and I think that they are few and far between) has properly diagnosed him let alone come up with a treatment plan.
With an alcoholic and drug addict – you send them to rehab – and you know that’s more effective than outpatient (esp. 60 days vs. 30 days) – and insurance will cover it….. with SA we don’t know anything – there are no empirical studies re: treatment. It’s maddening and we are all shooting in the dark. That’s what is so terrifying.
I personally think that Minwalla has a good treatment protocol set up after his in-patient assessment that includes therapy with a CSAT (or very good trauma therapist), 1 to 2 SA meetings a week and working the steps, and regular polys (e.g. every 6 months). Employers do drug testing – why the heck shouldn’t we if we decide to engage with these guys? Sure – I know there are some who can beat it but it works for the vast majority.
I feel like we are in pioneer land – which can be exciting but for partners, it’s frustrating to say the least.
If anyone knows the answer to false hope vs. real hope – please stand up!
Deb
I think hope is just that..hope. I dont know what false hope is….hope/false hope…it is not a guarentee. I think it is okay to hope things work out in our lives. Without that I know that I would sit on the couch eating bon-bons each day and not accomplish anything. I would be in a state of depair. Hope motivates me on many levels. Its okay to hope that you will be healed from the trauma one day, it is okay to hope that that father of your children becomes an authentic man, it is okay to hope that your life turns out okay…
Hope doesnt mean you aren’t a realist or you are living in fantasy. Having hope doesnt mean that things cant still go to shit….
I have tons of hope that my husband will stay on his path – for himself, for our children, and for me. But I never would be so bold to say that having hope means the situation isnt still maddening, devestating, and life-altering. I also wouldnt say that I wont get hurt again, or that he cant easily be deceiving me right now…I dont think so, I am pretty sure he is not…which is why I am here and I have hope. Still doesnt mean I will stay…but if I knew he was in a fake recovery then I would have no qualms about leaving…
Hope doesnt need to mean you are being played for a fool….hope is what keeps many of us from extreme, debilitating, despair
One factor that we all talk about a lot here, but we seem to have forgotten in this discussion about hope, is the fact that most of these men have Personality Disorders.
Personality Disorders are a variant form of the normal, healthy personality. In severe cases it is the far end of the extreme.
While every normal person (I define normal as someone who does not suffer from a Personality Disorder) may occasionally engage in impulsive behaviors, such as buying something we really don’t need, or even doing something really out of character and stupid such as engaging in unsafe sex with someone we barely know.
But the normal person will reflect upon that error in judgement(s) and recognize that something needs to change and make that change.
For the Personality Disordered person impulsive behaviors are a way of life and changing those behaviors either never occurs to them or is impossible for them to accomplish. They may (or may not) recognize that these behaviors are harmful but they are unable to change these negative behaviors.
The current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) describes a Personality Disorder as “an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual’s culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time and leads to distress or impairment.”
An interesting peculiarity of Personality Disorders is that people with Personality Disorders will routinely experience difficulties in their relationships, and difficulties at work or school, but they do not perceive or believe that there is anything wrong. In fact, they may not appear to be bothered much at all.
In other words, their personality traits do not appear to be causing them any distress; meanwhile, they are causing a lot of distress to everyone around them.
Problems with interpersonal relationships are found in all personality disorders and experts consider these interpersonal difficulties to be the most significant and defining feature that all personality disorders share in common.
In my opinion it is very difficult to hold out hope that the relationship will ever evolve into anything that would be satisfying to a normal person when one party is emotionally crippled with Personality Disorders.
Ordinary people would find it extremely difficult to change their core behaviors.
For Personality Disordered people, change is impossible.
As long as we keep defining possible outcomes in terms of our own potential rather than recognizing the inability of the Personality Diaordered individual to change we will continue to chase rainbows hoping for that pot of gold that just does not exist. ~ JoAnn
One factor that we all talk about a lot here, but we seem to have forgotten in this discussion about hope, is the fact that most of these men have Personality Disorders.
Personality Disorders are a variant form of the normal, healthy personality. In severe cases it is the far end of the extreme.
While every normal person (I define normal as someone who does not suffer from a Personality Disorder) may occasionally engage in impulsive behaviors, such as buying something we really don’t need, or even doing something really out of character and stupid such as engaging in unsafe sex with someone we barely know.
But the normal person will reflect upon that error in judgement(s) and recognize that something needs to change and make that change.
For the Personality Disordered person impulsive behaviors are a way of life and changing those behaviors either never occurs to them or is impossible for them to accomplish. They may (or may not) recognize that these behaviors are harmful but they are unable to change these negative behaviors.
The current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) describes a Personality Disorder as “an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual’s culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time and leads to distress or impairment.”
An interesting peculiarity of Personality Disorders is that people with Personality Disorders will routinely experience difficulties in their relationships, and difficulties at work or school, but they do not perceive or believe that there is anything wrong. In fact, they may not appear to be bothered much at all.
In other words, their personality traits do not appear to be causing them any distress; meanwhile, they are causing a lot of distress to everyone around them.
Problems with interpersonal relationships are found in all personality disorders and experts consider these interpersonal difficulties to be the most significant and defining feature that all personality disorders share in common.
In my opinion it is very difficult to hold out hope that the relationship will ever evolve to anything that would be satisfying to a normal person when one party is emotionally crippled with Personality Disorders.
Ordinary people would find it extremely difficult to change their core behaviors For Personality Disordered people change is impossible.
As long as we keep defining possible outcomes in terms of our own potential rather than recognizing the inability of the Personality Diaordered individual to change we will continue to chase rainbows hoping for that pot of gold that just does not exist. ~ JoAnn
And, another thought…When a person is diagnosed with a Personality Disorder the psychiatrist will talk openly with the family about the treatment and outcomes.
The family will be told that the only hope for small changes is long term behavior modification and that one of the enduring traits of Personality Disordered people is the lack of cooperation with treatment.
If ‘Sex Addiction’ was treated properly, as a symptom or trait of a Personality Disorder instead of a primary diagnosis we would be given these cold hard facts and be able to make an ‘informed choice’ rather than torturing ourselves with all these false hopes of cures or permanent change.
Anyone, even a Personality Disordered person, can put on an act of change, sometimes for long periods of time, when they are desperate and when the stakes are high.
But real, honest, long term change to their core is not possible for anyone with PD. ~ JoAnn
…which is why insurance won’t pay for PD treatment, so mental health professionals have to give a dual diagnosis in order to get paid.
Deb,
It is a disease, it’s called Personality Disorder (not Sex Addiction).
A Psychiatrist can give you all the details and information that you are seeking. ~ JoAnn
Thanks JoAnn for posting on Personality Disorders, and giving a very factual and realistic opinion to the outcome of an SA with such disorder/disorder’s.
I think part of the problem with a lot of spouses is they are not knowledgeable or privy to the facts of what they are actually dealing with, and thus hold onto false hope.
If, indeed, the spouse makes the decision to stay, I do not think it is a healthy decision to reduce our lives to living with a person who basically has the personality and emotional maturity stuck in an arrested stage of development. Who wants to live with a child?
I am going to go out on a limb here and will probably ruffle some feathers, but if a wife decides to stay in a dysfunctional relationship she needs to take a look at herself and identify what needs the relationship is meeting for her.
In my case, I tend to pick men who are emotionally unavailable, as was my father when I was a child. Even recognizing that on an intellectual level did not stop the cycle for me – we react to so many things on a subconscious level. Steve looked like, was built like, and had the same personality as dear old Dad – thus the attraction. I also think I had a need to control (and this is getting real psychological) because I could not fix my Dad, so tried to fix Steve. I probably will not try another relationship, because I would not trust my judgement.
I am not saying everyone is living out a trauma based childhood, but I still think it is meeting a need of some sort to stay in such an unhealthy marriage. I know, for me, another factor was the “Miss Nancy Nurse” in me definitely put me in the caretaker role, and women are bred to be caretakers. Also, when we give our hearts to someone, it is with total loyalty and devotion, and that is a very difficult thing to resolve when we have to make a decision to leave and seek out a healthy life for ourselves.
Okay, off my soapbox. My intention was to thank Joann for the post, and I got off on a role here. I just feel so deeply for my sister’s and don’t want to see them hurt anymore. So – please, everyone, if you do decide to stay, please explore all reasons as to why you are making that decision.
Many of my colleagues (Psychologists/Psychiatrists have told me, “A healthy person would not choose to stay.” Are they right? Food for thought.
Now before you all jump on me, I know there are extenuating circumstances like finances and children which make it very difficult to come to a decision.
Love to all,
SharronI wish someone besides us would step up are start talking and writing about the potential PD connection to our partner’s behaviours. We’ve made this connection several years ago. In fact, i think we first started talking about it on the other site.
I just feel we are labouring in dark corners unnecessarily. There IS more information for us to have, and my concern is that we become even more damaged by the cumulative experience of “hoping” that we base on current information, and the devastation of disappointment that ensues because that information is incomplete and even sometimes incorrect.
I think for me there is a necessary relationship between hope for a relationship, and the right information and all the information (as JoAnn has stressed).
Yes, I see that PD is a disease. But I don’t think the sexual behaviours associated with it are disease. They are symptoms of hte PD disease.
What we need for the care of partners ( it seems ) is education on the PD thing. I think the high functioning of the PD Person is such a red herring for all of us. By the time we are knee or neck deep in years of shared living, the trauma of the diagnosis is like yet ANOTHER trauma to face.
We face the betrayal and lies and loss, and then we face the limited options for treatment and change.
I don’t know. yesterday I cried all over again thinking of how much I loved him, how I was looking forward to these years of choosing where we would live to retire and what we would do, and whether we would build on our barn property or buy something else. All gone. All those years led me to nothing. I lost a great deal to this PD and its narcissism and chosen outlets.
As one of the still (a little) hopeful ones, I’m trying to understand all this and I very much appreciate all the wisdom and opinions from those of you who have been dealing with this for longer than I have. So do you believe that ALL SAs have personality disorders? That’s the part I’m struggling with. I can clearly see the PDs in some of the SAs here but I’m not sure I would say my H has a PD. If he does have a diagnosed PD would his therapist share that with me?
Only a medical doctor can diagnose Personality Disorders.
It is a medical condition.
A psychiatrist can set up testing with a psychologist, and review the test results and use those results along with their interviews with the patient and the family to formulate a diagnosis.
Family interviews are almost always included in the psychiatrist’s evaluation because people who have PD’s are not good historians and do not perceive that they have a problem, so the input from family members is vital.
A therapist (unless they have MD after their name) is not qualified to make a diagnosis, but they can make a referral if they suspect such.
No, I do not think all so called Sex Addicts have Personality Disorders, but what alternative is there?
I do think that anyone who is capable of the types of behaviors that these men engage in and the manipulation and deception that they are capable of is diagnostic in itself.
Their behaviors are not normal. ~ JoAnn
joann,
i wonder if a psychologist wouldn’t be fooled by SAs, just like counsellors are…
and another question:
“Only a medical doctor can diagnose Personality Disorders. A psychiatrist can set up testing with a psychologist, and review the test results and use those results along with their interviews with the patient and the family to formulate a diagnosis.”
my H had psychological testing done at SRI. i’m insisting on having the results. the cocksucker is refusing to give me a copy, but will read the results in a CSAT session to me.
is it standard practice to include interviews with family members? my h is fairly intelligent, i would assume that he would try to figure out the ‘right’ answer to questions, consciously and unconsciously.
can you tell me everything you know about what is standard practice for testing?
as i’m typing this, i’m going to get the psychologists phone number from my H so i can talk to him.
such a pity i have to go searching after this information, but i guess i shouldn’t be surprised.
I will have my eBook on Personality Disorders ready for purchase within the next few weeks. Hopefully it will answer a lot of questions that most of you have based on my own experience with PD testing and a lot of research that I have done over the last year.
And yes, Personality Disordered people are master manipulators and can easily fool a lot of professionals–it is the hallmark of a PD.
That’s why it is important to utilize a psychiatrist who is trained in dealing with Personality Disorders.
Unfortunately most Personality Disordered patients either refuse treatment, are not compliant or assume an arrogant attitude that they know themselves better than any doctor and simply blow off any suggestions for medication or treatment.
I hope this helps. ~ JoAnn
I think we have to look at hope and faith seperately. Hope is oftne based on emotions, which is not always logical or based in fact. it is based on our experience, in the relationship, and hope for a marriage to be better/healed.
my thoughts on hope, is that when my mother was diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer, i was still hopeful, that something could be done. treatment would come about to cure/ or put it into remission. but with all of science’s help, she still died, 1 year from date of diagnosis with all the latest medicine and treatment. we got some extra time, but no more than that. but I hoped. i couldn’t help, but hope.
but the reality is that is was stage 4 pancreatic cancer. look at the odds, they don’t lie, and she was no excpetion.
faith believes for healing in spite of circumstances. perhaps some of us have stronger faith than others in God’s ability to change these men.
but that is dangerous. because unlike cancer, addiction involves choice and the human will. they are literally choosing illness. and hurting their families and wives in the process. i personally don’t care what the psychobabble is around it, no one held guns to their heads and made them do it. they are responsible for a self induced illness. and harming others.
God cannot heal what is not being given up, to make that healing occur. the only faith i have, is that my life heals from the trauma that was put upon me by him. and indirectly, to my child. and that somehow, I can forgive. not for reconiliation purposes. note that please. but forgiveness so that we can move on to seperate and healthy lives. that is where faith lies for me, trust in my maker to provide, protect and cherish our lives (me and jacqleen) and divide the seas, so we can pass in to his divine will and promised land. But for the SA, no miracles, no psychotherapy is going to help, until they get humble, are sorry for what they have done. truly truly sorry. until then, hope is based on our emotions and investment in the relationship. and is likely, very unrealistic. unless, the are sorry, humble and really walking the walk. that is my IMO for the day. just another of many
I wonder what Minwalla’s take is on PDs and SAs? I know that he does a battery of psychological testing…but wondering what his take is on it. As far as I’m concerned, he’s the most knowledgeable in this field. I’d also be interested in Barbara Steffens take on this.
1) What % of the SAs have a PD? And how does this alter the treatment plan and the outcome (e.g. potential for a decent marriage with them)?
2) What is the best way to ascertain if someone that presents with a sexual compulsion also has a PD? (e.g. who is best qualified to diagnosis this?).
I’ll shoot Dr. Minwalla an email and see what if he responds.
Deb
This is such an informative thread. I agree with Joann and NAP. To have hope, the offender needs to get very honest and the offended needs to find a way to trust. The offender cannot have a personality disorder. No hope with personality disorders.
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