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Hi all,
I really need some suggestions. Last night, (I watch American Idol), my husband said he was going to take his motorcyle for a ride around the block a few times. He hadnt rode it in a while and wanted to run it. He was actually gone an hour and 15 minutes and he left his phone at home. I went immediately into panic mode thinking he’s probably met someone for sex. When he I got home he told me the route he took and that he went to Acedemy to buy a new pocket knife. The whole time he is telling me this Im thinking youre lying, youre lying. Well, after he left for work this morning I found the receipt for the pocket knife in his motorcyle bag and the time stamp and date are legit. So really, based on that and where its located it makes sense. Now I feel stupid but it was only 8 weeks ago my husband skipped his SA meeting to have sex. I got on chat and Cindy and Lylo helped me. How do I not be paranoid?PS Im in the process of working on my boundries and hes been in recovery 5 weeks
Hi NAP.
Well like you said it has only been five weeks. It is going to take this happening several times before you can settle down. Maybe request that if he goes out and he does go to the store that he show you the receipt so that you don’t have to chase it down and worry.You are not in the wrong, story is odd. Said he would drive around the block, instead drove around the block and went to go get a pocket knife as well and was gone over an hour. One thing he should be doing is just sticking to what he says he is doing. He needs to make you aware of his plans and stick to them, or call you if they change.
I don;t think there is a way to make it go away quickly, only way I see is to not pay attention to what he is doing. But I think the best way is that it is just going to take months of him telling the truth, following up on what he said he was doing, and becoming a person you would trust again. But only through time and hard work will your mind begin to settle. I think it will take a lot of time. When things don;t add up….you would be a fool not to question. I think this is not necessarily something you have to do, but maybe make more requests of him in what he needs to do for you to feel safe and not worry. I don;t think asking him where he is going and keeping you aprised of his whereabouts is too much to ask.
Devils advocate point of view. But as always, he can do these things and still be telling a story, and always could add on just one more stop (that he neglects to tell you about). You just will never know, and I guess in the end you just gotta go with your gut.
Trust your gut, NAP. Don’t accuse him of having met someone or acted out. Tell him that you are now in a position of trusting your instincts and something feels “hinky” here ( that’s my new word, my husband actually looked it up to see if it really was a word) and that you are not sure you believe his story and that nothing he can say at this point will change the uncertainty of how you feel about what happened last night. Don’t get into a minute by minute account of the time with him or let him be defensive at that point. Just tell him that this hinky feeling is there and you are keeping track of this feeling in terms of how often, what the circumstances are, etc and just wanted to let him know that if he is interested in working on this with you in terms of rebuilding trust so that you don’t have that “hinky” feeling, that in the future his behavior needs to match his words. Around the block a few times is 10 – 15 minutes, and if he was going to run an errand that was further away or took longer, her could have easily stopped back to tell you that (since he didn’t have his phone) and when to expect him back. And if he isn’t willing to work with you, that leaves you in a perpetual state of anxiety over this sort of “innocent” thing, and there are consequences for that behavior with boundaries that we can draw.
I think it’s important to have the conversation and to frame it in terms of things that you know to be true and the above is true. He may try to deflect it ( ie “I wasn’t doing anything”), he may get defensive ( “here’s the receipt), he may get angry (“I feel trapped”) Don’t let him divert the issue……your trust level is what it is based on his behavior and your trust level will only improve based on his behavior and that behavior has to be visible to you.
Thinking of you, NAP:)
MarieMarie is right – you have every right to be suspect when your’e SA does something out of the ordinary. Did he just all of a sudden decide to go pick up a pocket knife? You need to tell him that he needs to disclose exactly what his plans are, and changing the game plan is not an option for him. You have every right, at this point in time, to know
everything.
It is so typical of an SA to not do what they say they are going to do and then deflect and get defensive/angry about
you questioning him. I went through that so many times I can’t count.
I know what you are going through – it is so difficult to re-build trust, and we may never get to the point where we can trust what they say. Would we really ever know?? It will take a long time.
I told my SA that I would have to have absolute trust from him for at least a 6 mo. period before I would start having trust in him. Also, he would have to abide by my boundaries, and he could not do that!
Divorce Court here we come.He needs to realise that when he says soemthing, he has to follow through with it. Going for a spin, be back shortly means a few mins to most rational people. Its his job to ensure he does what he says he is doing.
He goes for an hour. Of course you are going to panic! There’s not much you can do to stop that. If my H said he was running to the store (5 mins away) and didn’t get back for an hour he’d have some explaining to do.
SA or not, its just good manners and respectful.Nap,
When I read your situation, what my gut told me is he is testing how much he can push the boundary. Yes, he told you he was going out to ride the motorcycle because it hadn’t been run for a while. Then when he comes back, he tells you he decided to go to the store. It’s an after the fact situation, I think he either wants to see if he can push a reaction where he could say you over-react on every little thing he does, or he wants to see how many and how far he can push at the boundaries. Again, he is seeking control, by making you wonder (if you are accepting after-the-fact), or keeping you so involved in monitoring that you loose yourself in his manipulations and begin not to trust your ability to be rational. When, in the end, most likely it was entirely rational, you were not over reacting, You Were Being Manipulated.See how often he pulls these behaviors and that will tell you. I would not let him know you are on to him because he will only become more devious and use a different strategy.
After what we have all been through, it is not unreasonable to wonder if what you were told was the truth. It is not unreasonable that you check or anything else. We become hyper-vigilant to many things when living with a SA and their lies.
Dear NAP:
It is so difficult to relax about their whereabouts when trust is at ground zero, and should be at ground 0, isn’t it? I think like the others have said, setting your boundaries is what is important. He needs to abide. If are ok with I’ll be back in a few–then you are ok. If not, if you need time constraints – I will be back in 30 minutes and I am going exactly here – then it is that. I mean whatever it is, he needs to not get you into a panic. Boundaries protect you, and are not about him, so boundary away .
I wouldn’t beat yourself up about finding the receipt for the pocket knife. I mean if he recently was supposed to be at a meeting, and then acted out and had sex with someone, anything is possible, all things questioniable until further notice. Too bad. And that is his fault, not yours. I mean I thihk they are not above having a GPS tracker on his phone and ask him to bring it with him at all times. seriously. He’s earned the right to be monitored like a dog. If they had an SA dog collar tracking device I get one for mine. đ
Once thing I’ve been realizing lately. The “hinky” feeling. I agree. If it feels funky, it probably is funky. But you know what? . I think as we come more in tune as to what is going on, we get that “feeling” that something isn’t right, even if no action or acting out has occured. I can only speak for me, but that feeling is linked to mine having an episode of some type. And while a prositute or porn may not be involved, I know when mine SA “wants to act out” and is having an episode. He gets antsy, he needs to go for a walk, a short drive, anything. It’s the SA junkie itch. Plain and simple. Perhaps yours needed to do something gratifying for himself, like buy a pocketknife, and not have you with him every moment. Some kind of secret, somewhere. Even if it’s not sexual. Mine does it too. It is part of their secretiveness that they have hidden so long. Hopefully as they do the work, (if they do the work) less secrets and “itches” will occur.
nap i think many of us can and do question many of their actions i know with my partner many of the times in the past his reasons of doing what he did always seems within the realm of a possibility or at least a coincidence but i no longer believe in and of that anymore only facts he no longer has the luxury of doubt if i dont have black and white proof i do not believe him i told him that if anyone ever called me a liar to my face i would do everything possible to prove that person wrong and if he can not live nor deal with this then he knows where to door is
i told him that honesty is the only thing no one can take from you they can take your house your money your life your family but they can not take your honesty only you can and you decide if you want to earn that backI have been thinking about how much âafter the factâ was played out in the marriage. I was constantly blindsided by this passive aggressive behavior. After all, what can you do, it has already been done, it is mute. You canât change it, you didnât have input, there was no discussion, it was announced to you âafter the factâ, so you have a choice, live (deal) with it or leave, so you ended up living with these things that you didnât agree to, or have any input into.
The passive aggressive part of this is the âafter the factâ things are not big issues or things that you would leave a relationship over. However, after years of this behavior you begin to doubt your reactions. Each time this situation happens there is residual feelings from the previous âafter the factsâ and your feelings accumulate. If you do react to one of these situation, the passive aggressive will be the first to point out that you are over-reacting to such a little things . There is constant blindsiding, frustration, wondering why there is a disconnect, the anger you feel from these manipulation (but you didnât realize it was manipulation), the feelings you put aside, what I call a âfelt senseâ reactions to these incidences begin to have an undermining affect on you.
Passive aggressive behavior is silent bullying, it is a very cruel form of abuse, there is no honesty in the relationship and you who are a decent person and one that is willing to take responsibility for your part in relationship problems are being maliciously played with. The things you are willing to share responsibility with are things that you had nothing to do with; decisions that were made â his âafter-the-factâ, manipulation, blame shifting, minimizing, deflecting, the ambiguity, the forgetfulness, the he is a victim (look at his wife, she goes off over nothing) yah, years of deceit. It is also a covert form of abuse. If he beat you at least there would be evidence, this, you canât begin to explain and sound sane. Only people who experience this can completely understand and realize the truthfulness of what you are saying. Others, just think you are mentally impaired.
This âafter the factâ behavior he also taught to my children. So many many things I only found out âafter the factâ. I used to think I was so inept and couldnât figure out why I couldnât get it. Their objective is to keep the person just a little off-balance. This way you are diverted working on what you think is the problem when you actually have no idea what the real problem is. If they were to put you âover the edgeâ, then more people are going to get involved in helping you and the truth might surface. So they must isolate you with little things to keep you from getting to the truth.
They undermine your core values, violate things that are sacred to you. There is no remorse, guilt, or human kindness that will stop them.
I hope I am not just rambling and this makes sense to someone.
Hi all,
Thanks so much for all the great feedback. Very helpful and it gives me more clarity and strength.
flora, you are right, I can be more proactive ahead of time and define with him if the plan changes, he needs to let me know-that will reduce aniety and worry. Youre right, this will take time and its still pretty early but it seems longer.
Marie, I like your “hinky” method. I think that is a great way to communicate with my husband without acusing him of anything specific. Your example of possible responses from him were very helpful-and I need to trust my gut. Like flora said his story was odd.
Sharron, I agree, odd time to by a pocket knife? When youre just going around the block a few times. Youre right, if this kind of stuff contiunues, it will get old really fast and no trust. Like you, I could not continue the marriage.
Starry, it is just good manners and respect. I do think he has some exlpaining to do too.
Jeannette, I would have never thought of what you said but I think its true-very good perspective on this. I can see that he may be doing that and maybe even testing to see if that would work in the future-very helpful thank you.
Pam, youre right we do end up at a ground 0 level of trust. Takes alot of work on their part to build back. Youre right my husband likes his secrets even if their not related to his SA. Seems like they enjoy knowing something we dont.
Katt, love your thoughts on honesty. I think it is an important part of our integrity. Youd think they would value it more than they do.
Jeanette,
I wish I would have had those words months ago! WHen trying to explain it to my counsellor, who also counsels SA’s, I couldn’t find the right words and he dismissed me as crazy I think.
I’d love to print that and go beat him with it.
đ
Wow Jeannette,
Just read your latest post and its so right on. My husband used the “after the fact” method during our whole marriage. Over little and big things…very frustrating to live with but youre right it accumulates and accumulates. I quess its passive aggressive? For the victim, like us, its definately emotional abuse. Thanks for sharing this with us.
Hi all,
I dont want to play cop in my marriage. Was wondering though what your thoughts are on a GPS stuck to their car?
Hi All – Passive-Aggressove behavior is such a way for the SA to maintain control. My husband would act like he didn’t objectify women on the streets, look away when a suggestive scene came on TV, etc. If I confronted him, he would deny it and go ahead and look anyway just to piss me off. It would just put me over the edge, and his therapist kept telling me, “don’t feed into it.” Easier said then done. They really know how to push our buttons! Even when we know intellectually we are going ballistic over they’re sick
behavior, it is a very difficult thing to control.l I look back now and feel like such an idiot in helping him to keep that control. So, don’t make the mistake of doing what
I did – it will only make you feel in a constant state of frustration, andt the SA thrives on it. I finally got to the point where I would not engage in a confrontation with him, and he would do it all the more just to get a rise out of me – just like a 5/yo child. I now realize how much anger/rage
these guys have. My husband would continue lieing about his triggering and then act like his anger/rage wa my fault because he felt controlled regarding the boundaries I had in place for him to follow. Well, he finally cooked his goose, and now he can go practice his maladaptive behavior on someone else. Initially, I felt it would really bother me if he finds someone else – now I welcome it.
We all just have to get to the point where we KNOW change is not going to come easy with them – years and years of therapy, and then they will never be a “whole” person – maybe only learn to manage they’re compulsions. I, for one, don’t want to live the rest of my wife sitting on pins and needles and wonder when that “relapse” is going to come.
There has to be a normal guy out there! If not, Iwil be content in living out the rest of my years by my self – just like I did for 10 yrs. before I met him.
Hugs to everyone.Hi again everyone – I got to thinking it would be so nice if we could all talk on the phone once in a while. My phone number is 913-499-1674. I live in Kansas. It just isn’t the same when we chat, as we can’t engage in a long conversation, and sometimes it is just better to spend some time on the phone and really get to know eachother.
Anyone intereted?Hi everyone,
On not freaking out—-it seems to me that we have to accept that we will be freaking out if we decide to stay in the same living quarters as the SA. Most of what that means, for me, is the experience of emotional abuse dealt to us by the SA.In these posts someone named passive aggressive behaviour as bullying. That is exactly what it is. And it’s the bread and butter of SA treatment of their partner. Jeanette’s post about always being “off balance” is brilliantly clear. Imagine trying to get through your day hopping on one foot all day long. They train us to do that emotionally. So we never get balanced enough to say “wait a minute, this is crap, stop it”.
I could not think straight until we did not live in the same place. That’s my truth. And gradually, as we would interact, I began to see his emotional abuse more clearly because I wasn’t hopping around on one emotional foot all bloody day long. These guys are treating us very badly. The sexual acting out is just one arena of abuse. They have several they like to work in. And our presence is absolutely key to the “abuse show”.
This is why, if it is at all possible, getting away from the SA is my first recommendation for “how do I not freak out!”.
Get yourself some non-freaked out living arrangements and discover just how sane you are!
believing in you all,
D.Hi Diane and all,
I choose to stay with my SA for a number of reasons. Will I always stay with him, I dont know yet. I see that he is working hard at being a better person, can he succeed, I hope so, if not, then I will divorce and move forward with my life. I have a great deal of respect for you and all our sisters. We come from all walks of life, different cirumstances, different educational levels, different socioecomic backgrounds….what we have in common is that we are human and we are suffering. We all have our own experience with our SAs. For me, my husband had a horrible childhood. He watched his father abuse his mother and sister-he was spared but had to watch. His home burned down when he was 10. He lived in a motel room with an abusive father and his mother and sister for a long time. No insurance on the house, no money, lived on the kindness of strangers. From the age of 10 on, my husband never had his own room…when they did get a place, he didnt have a bedroom, he slept on a sofa til he left home at 18. Do I share this for sympathy, no. I share this for the human side of sex addiction. My husband is not a monster…first and foremost hes a human being just like me. If I was an addict of anykind, I would want someone who loved me to give me a chance and that is what Im doing. He deserves that. For me, I favor the idea of staying with my husband because I think the day to day interaction is important to the process. This is my choice for my self. If he turns into an abusive asshole I would leave. I think I am very sane and I can still live with him. I just freaked out why his motorcyle ride was longer than I expected.I agree with Diane – getting away from my SA was the best thing I ever did in order to process this entire situation and see it very clearly- then, it all made sense.
Getting out in the community has also made a BIG difference. I am actually meeting more people, and I see normal men who do not check me out 4-5x’s and objectify me. When you begin to see “normal” men, you will wonder why you ever stayed in such a dysfunctional relationship for so long. The insanity (and that is what it is) of living/staying with a sex addict is so destructive to us as a woman. I now
think, why in the world would have I put up with a man who will never put me 1st, cannot show intimacy or true love – a man whose world is built around a “false sense of self,” and truly lives in they’re own little fantasy world.
A lot of you on this site can remember how long it took me to make that final break. I am the type of person who needs everything validated before I can make an informed decision,
and it took an entire wasted year of my life for me to get there. But, at least now I know he is still a lier and deceiver, and that for me is what I had to know in my heart before I could make my decision and move on.
My advice to everyone is unless you know 100% your’e SA is positively working on recovery – get out. Then, of course, that brings up an entirely new perspective. We all know it will take years for an addict to learn to manage they’re addiction, (not cure) and why should we put up with always wondering if they are relapsing, still lieing to us, or even
continuing their fantasy network in their heads. We will never know for sure. I am the type of woman who needs a sure thing. I know in life their are no guarantee’s, but living and wasting more years of our lives makes no sense to me.
Do any of you wonder if your’e SA is fantasizing about the women in his addictive mind while making love to you? Do you wonder if he might secretly may be sneaking a look at that porn? Do you wonder if everytime he goes out, he may be hooking up with someone? Do you wonder if he is chatting on-line, or maybe visiting that massage parlor for an hour and can come up with a logical excuse as to why he was gone for an hour? Again, now worth it guys!!Dear NAP,
you gotta do what you gotta do. If you aren’t ready to be apart, then that’s just where you are.For the record, my SA husband also had childhood from hell–the victim of prolonged emotional incest with a single parent mother, damaging spiritual abuse, near poverty, neglect and a loneliness so deep he can’t talk about it. He works his recovery like a second job. He desperately wants to reconcile. He has done well as a father on most levels. He has been gracious in our living apart arrangements/decision about money and stuff. He has many good qualities.
BUT…when it comes to being with me, he is at his worst. He can’t resist the emotional abusive behaviours, even as he becomes more self-aware. He’s been at this for a lifetime. It’s the only way he knows how to be. Staying with him does not help this at all. It ruins me. And it places a perfectly reasonable expectation upon him that he can’t meet. It’s a defeating prospect for both of us. Will he one day manage it? I don’t know. He’s been an SA since his early early years, and is 59 now.
We have to do what is right for us, including face hard truths about the SA and about ourselves. I only hope strength for that path for you, NAP, and all the others on it too.
oooxxx,
D.Hi NAP,
I agree with you. I have lived every day with my SA husband for 2 1/2 years since d-day and that the day to day interaction has been very important in our relationship as regards regaining trust and respect and love. I have been comfortable living with him through this process as long as I keep my sense of self, and define my boundaries and keep grounded, and I have been happier in the last 2 1/2 years with myself and my life than I had been for a really long time prior to d-day. I know that if we had separated, I wouldn’t have looked back, but I always would have regretted and wondered “what if…..” and the what if for me was both of us working on our own issues and seeing if we can make it together as a couple. I don’t know if we will end up staying together, but I know that the time I have lived with him has been invaluable to me in terms of understanding him as a person and we have become real friends again who enjoy each other’s company and share similar interests. And my overall positive feelings for him, in view of the fact that we have 4 kids together for the rest of our lives, is a huge plus, whether we stay together or not. All of our SA’s have some common traits, but they are also very different men, and we as the spouses share some common traits, but we are also very different from each other. Unless a woman writes specifically asking for advice along the lines of , “Should I stay or should I go” I know that I wouldn’t be comfortable telling anyone to leave or stay, and even then I would say what works for me in my situation. It’s so personal and so complex. I am comfortable telling someone what works for me:)Love you all,
MarieHi Marie,
I agree with you too. You sound like you are in a really good place-very centered and nice…..Love, NAPHi sisters,
One of the best things I have ever done for myself in this mess was to kick the SA out house. While we are seperated, even a short term seperation like a week or two would even serve a similar purpose.One thing I did not realize was how I was being manipulated and how little i was really gaining from the relationship. With the SA in the home not only was I living on pins and needles, constant anxiety, I was also constantly doubting myself. In addition I am the bread winner, cook, cleaning lady, childcare coordinator; while my SA works minimum wage 32 hours a week and wants to have sex, hug and hold my hand…ohhh an view excessive amounts of porn and possible screw the occiasional hooker.
I started writing my SA letters to get my points across. I realized that when we had conversations by the end i would wonder did i ever get my point across? and Boy am I a bully and the one who is mean….
So i started to write letters, in which he were to reply also in a letter. I then saw what exactly was going on. the manipulation of the words, his reply letters to me were all about him, and i would ask a direct question; he would write a three page response with no answer. Just all about that he does not want to get divorced, but never a wrote about what he was going to do about it. Never a promise of how he would work hard or try to make things better, a plan; just what he wanted.
Even during brief seperations i would let him come back; because i needed him to help watch the baby or pick up groceries. But i started to realize how little I was gaining. When I kicked him out so very little changed…because he did so very little. He was a smooth operator, using his kindess and charm to mask over the lack of help and intimacy. Once his smooth opeprator kindness and crazy making were removed (when he was kicked out); i could finally see how this relationship was totally one sided. I had suspected, but I would always doubt. Becaue he is so nice, kind, loving etc. But nice kind and loving are not these things. Nice kind and loving help out, help pay the bills, help with the house…..not sit on their hands appearing to be all that I wanted.
Fortunately for me and my kids, i now know. I don’t think you need to seperate or telling anyone to seperate. But I hope that you all can get the clarity and security that you need to be able to live a happy and full life everyday. This addiction sucked 9 months of my life away; fear, worry, hope and anxiety. I don’t want to lose anymore. Its hard to live life when you are in constant fear of tomorrow. I hear the term one day at a time; but ladies I am a planner. I do wnat to know what tomorrow brings, and I do want to know that my kids and i are safe. That we have roof over our heads and that my kids will not be abused. This is what security is to me.
To this day even a year later, I am still dumbfounded. I did my leg work, felt I asked the write questions in the interview process also called dating. I still do not see this in his personality, as someone who would be so deceiving. I still can’t get it, or that he is really this messed up person. He still comes across as this nice, caring guy. But he is still the guy who lied to me, he is still the guy with a sex addiction, and he is still the guy who really lacked any effort to get better or help out. That is the harsh truth. And I am sure this is the decision many of you face. Its not easy.
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