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Yea, I hear what Nap and Diane are saying. I was just trying to give an example of what it feels like to hear someone lie by saying that they do not remember. These types of conversations took place early on during the discovery phase. I don’t need to know any more information to know that he is an SA now at this road in my journey. But early on when I was trying to understand everything that I was discovering, I did need to know what level of intimacy was happening. If he responds with an “I dont remember” this does not help the partner to understand what they are really dealing with here. It seemed to help him with his memory if I could break it down into smaller questions. This way he could take the cover off slowly and still be in somewhat denial. If he is just saying I don’t know or remember what happened, our minds can get carried away with its own images. When you are trying to figure out did he talk with these woman or actually do something with them, you have to ask the questions. It is not the questions that are as important as the way he answers them. I feel like someone who is in a sincere recovery effort will be able to address the questions with regret in their tone.
I can appreciate your perspective, NAP and Diane. I don’t ask much about the massage parlour stuff which he spent alot of our money on and did it for decades because I can just lump that into pile of garbage.
The point that Cindy makes is a big one for me as well. If I need full disclosure and he wants me to heal and move on then he needs to do what I need, however uncomfortable it is for him. I actually handle the facts that he discloses better than what he hasn’t been completely honest about which enrages me. That rage for all of us comes from a place of fear for our safety. These men did not protect us in the past and our future is at stake.
Also…when you are dealing with people that you know, it seems to be more crucial to know to what degree you were betrayed and by whom.
Hi Cindy and Lylo,
I have only respect for your perspectives and needs. I was just expressing how i see it for myself. I think this is a very personal issue and each one of us decides what we need and what we dont. All the best, NAPHi NAP – I see where you were trying to connect with me on chat. I type in a message, but can’t get it to post. I asked JoAnn what I am doing wrong. Not trying to ignore you – just can’t get there!
HugsNAP and Diane…I’m with you..I know more than I ever cared to know..I have no need to know anymore…it will do nothing to change the hell I’m living with…it is a personal choice for sure..whatever works for you and your situation….Pat
jaded, nap, diane, I’m in the same boat. I can’t handle knowing any more. Just knowing the amount I do has caused me great pain. I didn’t handle knowing this very well. I already hand anxiety problems and this threw me into a deep depression. Doing much better now, but I don’t think it would be healthy for me to expose myself to any more than I already know. His therapist informed me that there is much more than I know and that for me to hear would be very traumatic. I decided not to have the full disclosure. I’m curious, of course, but sometimes it’s just better not to know.
CBS , Diane and all:
Diane I was really thankful for your post about denial vs. knowing our limits. I feel that I know what I need to , and I have questioned if that was “denial or not”. After reading your post, I realize that knowing my limits and what I can handle is what is most important. I literally almost cracked up this past year after discovery. I am finally in a better space, and I don’t want images that cause PTSD rattling around my brain anymore. I want to live in the truth, but I don’t need every gory detail in my face. It does not seem to do much good for my life. I want to know enough to make good decisions with my life. And look at his behavior, in a simple way.
Also, I had a thought over the weekend “just be beautiful– inside and out”. Everything else will work itself out. I want to be better than I was before D Day. Look better, Feel better, be better. I hope to not only recover, but triumph from this.I think after I found out so much that there was no way I could be in denial..sometimes I chose to not acknowledge or know something(like I have totally stopped snooping a long time ago) but that is a conscious choice on my part…I love the line from the movie “The way we Were”…what’s to painful to remember we simply chose to forget”..that kind of sums it up for me..
I completely understand why anyone would decide to leave some stones unturned. As for me, in addition to reasons I have already stated, I need to gauge the degree to which he is willing to be an honest person because I can accept other failings, but I know now that I need a partner that wants total honesty and transparency in our relationship as much as I do.
There was a point when you were consumed of trying to know (to the point of obssession.) You’d think “If I could just get confirmation, I can be content (to leave him, because you felt you’re too exhausted to continue)” Then it happens, in my case, finding and opening his secret Facebook and saw that he has been soliciting, meeting and engaging with prostitutes. I literally got sick, fever temperature shot to the roof with shock (but I was basted with Prodin that all I had were mind and internal break-downs.) There was no dramatic confrontation, just me texting him saying all that I know and that it’s over. He didn’t exactly come running and begging for forgiveness. He didn’t have the sense or urgency to see me and explain. In fact, and I keep repeating this to everyone I talk to, I got No Apologies, No Explanation, (ABSOLUTELY) No Contact (since D-day), ergo No Remorse.
I have so many questions (Thank Goodness for this site I got a lot of answers.) It was so anti-climatic.
My point is I don’t know if he did me a favor by leaving and me not getting full disclosure. I just like to think the worse so it would justify everything. I wanted full disclosure in order to move on. But with him doing the same, I closed all contact with his family and friends. So know I know absolutely nothing. Some say it’s agood thing and that he spared me more heartache. But then again, I wasn’t given that chance to find out.Im so sorry Banshee. But… even without total disclosure, you have the crucial knowledge that he is remorseless and therefore most probably a long way from recovery. The full extent of his activities is not important if you are not in danger of being victimized by him again. It must be frustrating on the one hand, but at least you are clear that he is not going to repeat this abuse of your heart and believe it or not, that is a gift.
Thank you Lylo….
Mine gives me the same inane apologies. They must learn this at their meetings. Before mine went to a meeting, while I was still in meltdown mode over the discovery, he said “I’m worried about you.” I flipped. I said: “That’s rich. Were you worried about me while you were downloading the porn and jacking-off to it? F-you, F-everyone that looks like you, F the horse you rode in on.”
These “men” are really pieces of work.
Well my THING must have talked to whomever it was that told him to act like a parrot, because it has suddenly stopped. We are back to the silence with the blank stare, which is very annoying, but not as annoying as the parrot.
His reaction to me imitating his crapola was fabulous. He called ME insensitive and irrational. Oh yea. This coming from the most insensitive and irrational person I have ever met. Talk about blame-shifting. He then went on an anger tirade, since it’s the only emotion he seems to possess, aside from the desire to have orgasms with prostitutes or his own hand whilst staring at hookers and porn.
As for the other discussion, I wish he would come clean about everything he has done. It’s maddening when you present clear cut, hard evidence to someone about the things they have done, and they still stand there with a blank stare and say to your face that they “don’t remember”. WELL START REMEMBERING. Admit to it all so I can BURY it already. He should oblige by my wishes at this point. It’s the least he can do.hurtheart mine must be cloned from the same thing hes blank stare with “its not like that” mine doest even have anger its nothing at all i received a note from him telling me to give him time he needs to find out who he is and hasnt figured out yet my guess is he never will who would want to face this i dont get anything from him i read about the drip method of disclosure at this point i would be happy with mist i believe the well is dry and i will never get anything i will die of dehydration if i wait much longer
Hurtheart – I doubt seriously you will ever know everything. The “don’t remember” thing seems to be a famous phrase for all of these SA’s. How convenient. From my own experience, I probably only knew 25% of the lieing and deception towards me, and that was with confrontation. Anger seems to be they’re good offense to a good defense. It projects everything onto us – exactly what they are trying to do.
So, let the anger out – let the hurt out, and then realize that they are truly “pieces of work” who are totally self-centered and don’t give a s–t that they are destroying the lives of the ones that love them the most. They show NO empathy. Definitely not worth the roller-coaster of emotions that we allow them to put us through.
Hugs to you.Dear Hurtheart:
Just wanted to say you are validated– if you need him to come clean so you can move on, then he should, and that’s it – should being the operative word. But oh, the being honest and admitting to something, for your partners’ benefit? Not your own satisfacton? what a foreign concept to an SA. Learning to speak fluent Mandarin wb easier for them. Perhaps hurtheart, after time in his program, his limits will expand and he can encompass your needs more- slim but possible if he is dedicated and doing the work. But if recovery is in its infancy, well, I don’t know if you can expect too much. It’s still all about them, all about the addict. It sucks. Hopefully, he gets there and you get more of what you need to heal and move forward.
I hope this does not sound strange– . Anyone feel like they are living in a sort of fog in regards to living w SA? I do. I think it is a survival mechanism. sometimes I just don’t feel “all there” and connected. Like a head in sand, blinders on when it come to dealing with him and my own emotions. It’s not a horrible feeling, feel like I am in protect / or autopilot mode. It’s as if the truth wb just too painful to live with day in and day out. thoughts? Is this text book denial?
Hi Pam
Do you mean connected to him? Despite my husbands efforts to connect, I am in protect mode. One foot in front of the other, but I cannot allow a connection (for incomplete disclosure reasons), even with his best efforts. Like you said, it isn’t horrible, but it is so vanilla that it is odd in it’s own way. Polite exchanges (“have a good day at work…you too”), dinner as usual, separate bedrooms. Odd, for sure. Denial? I think/hope it is a phase, don’t you? That is the norm, but then there are times when I get triggered and then angry. Do you?Yes Pam, I do understand the fog you are talking about. I think the discovery put me in a state of shock. I think I remained that way for over a year. I am embarrassed to admit that. I am afraid that it shows that I am weak or something. But in reality, I am a very sensitive soul. I feel like it is taking me awhile to wrap my mind around all of this. Part of the problem is the re-traumatizing that occurs based on his inability to nurture my sadness. When he blame-shifts and dismisses my pain, that just digs the knife in deeper for me. He has this very keen ability to throw our problems into my lap. I know that I have let him get away with this kind of blame shifting for other issues during the course of our marriage. It is difficult for me, but I am proud that I am standing up for myself with this problem. I am learning to be my own best friend. No, I will not receive what he is trying to throw my way. I am more than willing to admit that I am not perfect. I am not willing to catch this ball that he is throwing my way. In his opinion it is me that is preventing our marriage from moving on. He has said that he is sorry, he says that he will not act out anymore, so what is MY problem? He is angry that I am “not over it”. He is not use to me holding him accountable for his bad behavior. He wants to be the one in charge of when I am supposed to feel sad or when I am supposed to feel vulnerable. And in his opinion, that time is over. Well, guess what? He does not get to decide that! I am finally letting myself feel what I really feel. I am honoring myself and standing up for me.
It is kind of like I am the mother of the toddler who let them get away with their tantrums for too long. When he was having a tantrum, I tried hard to calm it. What I should have done is, let him work it out. I am guilty of feeding his tantrums with attention, teaching him that tantrums are acceptable. It is also kind of like the teenager who is really pissed at the parents for holding them accountable for their bad behavior. It is a hard thing to do sometimes as a parent to stay calm when their teen is hurling insults at them because the teen does not want to abide by the rules of the family or society. We as parents must stay strong to teach them that the behavior that they are exhibiting is NOT OK.
Well, here I go again, I am rambling.
I think that we did not know that we were going to be put in a “parental role” with our spouses. So for that, I am going to forgive myself for my past of meeting his tantrums with a mindset of understanding and trying to keep the peace. I think that if I was dealing with an “adult”, this is a good tool to use when a conflict arises. Now that I understand that I was dealing with a toddler who was screaming because they did not get the candy in the check out aisle, I am learning that allowing that behavior to continue is not in my best interest.
Does any of this make sense to any of you? Cause as I am typing this I just have a stomach ache and feel sick. I don’t want to be the Mother of my husband. I want to be strong for myself, and yet, I keep wondering if there is something wrong with me. I think I just triggered myself………….Cindy,
It seems a lot of SA’s have the same type of attitude towards thier partners. I can imagine how it feels, but thankfully, I have not had to endure that extra pain.
I’m in a different position, my H is actually being decent about it, andother than the odd time many months ago, he’s been decent about it since d-day.
Somedays I question it, as I should, and some days I accept it for what it is. If it was an act, could he keep it up this long? (over 8 months)
The other night he actually asked me if he was “crowding me”. I asked for clarification, and he meant by reaching for me, hugging me and sitting close to me. I said no, that I wanted those things but found myself holding back from him because I don’t want to get hurt. He said, and I genuinely believe him, that “thats ok, he would expect nothing different, and if anything, was extremely happy that I allow him to get close to me, he thought it would be much longer before I could even sit by him, and to take all the time I need. he’s prepared to wait.”I am thankful for this, however, just like everything else in my life, I question it.
I guess I am greatful he’s not acting like other SA’s with the “get over it” attitude.You don’t want to be his mother, yes, makes complete sense! Thats not your job, as an adult, its his job to look after himself. Its my opinion that an SA who hasn’t realised that is not in solid recovery, he’s just abstaining. WHen things get tough, they can’t look after themselves and they are are back to square one.
There is nothing wrong with you! Absolutley nothing… Remember thatCindy111,
I think many of us get put into the mother role, i think it is common. I think they look for someone who is strong and will baby them so to speak. Help clean up their messes, after all we do feel pity for them right? That is usually how we got here. And then one thing led to another etc.Toddlers are so much easier to deal with though I have a three year old. When she starts spouting or hitting, i can just put her in time out. Can’t do that with a man though….
I think the other thing I have noticed in my relationship with the SA is that I was setting boundaries his parents never did. Trying to teach responsibility to bills, household, finances; then boundaries about lying, cheating etc.; core values. But these things can;t be taught if the person just does not want to learn and is a spoiled 3 year old (so to speak). I have found that the lack of financial responsibility that you are finding, may not be part of the addiction. That may be something else entirely. I had originally hoped that maybe the addiction was the cause of the selfishness and irresponsiible behavior. But it is not. HE too says he is in recovery; but the other issues have not gone away and it has been a year.
It is tough to deal with, unfortunatley i think living with an addict, especially a sex addict, will always be tough. You have to asses the situation and figure out how much more if this you can take.
I am glad you stood up for yourself, and start slowly taking yourself out of the mother role. Set it up so he is responsible for his own things, so what if he fails. If he keeps failing, then you have decisions to make. Let him fail. I to do the same thing covering for him financially, and it happens slowly, But it is not fair to you and your kids. Where is the time for you and your kids, after you spend so much time cleaning up his messes. I hope it all comes back to you soon.Hugs to you cindy! Hang in there, you are doing well.
Flora,
“so what if he fails”, brilliant!
One of the hard things I’ve found, is just sitting still and saying nothing when I see him about to fail. I want to promt, to remind, ect. LIke a few months back when he’s cooking supper, he forgets that potatoes take longer than the meat he is frying, yet he puts them on at the same time. Before I would have taken charge, now I let him work away, and guess what, he HAS learned! He has learnt that he has to plan ahead a bit 🙂
Its amazing how much these guys just don’t know…
starry i have 3 sons ages 31,21,14 and i can say that a lot of what i see is common in they as well as my partner they all seem to have a problem with seeing ahead,planning,they do learn but at times it seems to take forever after many tries when i had my first son my aunt came to visit me and she said “the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys” i think of this often another thing she told me once “it all comes down to locker room mentality stare and compare if only they could walk around with it hanging out of their pants,no more my cars faster than yours,my tools better than yours etc etc”
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